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Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

knightcolumbia.org

271–280 of 285 posts

Re: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point did those who made the "vague accusation of hacking" storm the United States Capitol in a coup attempt?

Do people really believe that it was a coup attempt though? I see people framing it that way but always assumed it was political exaggeration

Here's a definition I like: "A sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force." (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/coup-d-etat).

Start before the election with attempts to suppress Democratic voting (I did not know this, but apparently mail-in ballots are known for leaning Democratic---"Red mirage and blue surge" or something.), then attack the legitimacy of the election, both in the legal system and in public statements (increasing the latter as the former failed), further make semi-covert calls for illegal actions on the part of various officials associated with the election, and finally call for and support a protest (specifically including the more extreme supporters) at an event that is largely a formality. Yes, I think the whole course of events satisfies the definition of a coup.

Not a competent one, of course. A competent coup would have called in National Guard or military forces to suppress the rioters and at the same time sequester the members of the House and Senate in an undisclosed location for their own protection. Then declare a national emergency, place National Guard or military forces in state capitols and large cities---at that point violence becomes inevitable and the coup self-sustaining. (This isn't exactly a genius mastermind plan; it's how it's done all over the world.)

That does require the cooperation of the military, which Mr. Trump never really had, though.

Some of us are still wondering, though, why there were only Capitol Police at the Capitol. It seems likely that had the protest been another group, significant riot control forces would have been in place.

Re: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

#272
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please follow the site guidelines, which ask you not to post like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The GP comment is no longer in a downvoted state, let alone "oblivion". Meanwhile comments like yours linger on as uncollected garbage even after they have been falsified. The thing to do instead is to give a corrective upvote and move on. Most often, fair-minded readers do enough of that to restor…

I appreciate the feedback, dang. Please feel welcome to replace it with "[removed]" (I'm not able to.)

No need! It's just good to keep in mind for the future. Thanks for the kind reply.

Re: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me rephrase your argument, so its tractable. The risks are overblown, and so its ok to create places with decentralized freer speech. Firstly- I removed the parts where you stated that this is like the phone network. Phone calls are temporally limited, once you are done with a call its over. You can't hear that voice again, or relive that conversation, except through memory. Text on a forum combines the worst of…

Fair point regarding the difference between phone conversations and textual forum/group discussions. However - I disagree with your bottom line. Perhaps on the level of the _individual_ forum/channel/board you may be right. But not on the level of the _platform_. Specific forums/spaces/channels etc. which collapse - collapse, that's a problem for their founders and members. In that respect, I'll make a different anal…

The last line of my comment was a quote, after which I intended to comment:

The mailing list might not be able to avoid the use of force (maybe). But the platform can avoid it.

Re: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

#274
post #249

I read, and re-read the article and I am yet to understand how a protocol will help what the author describes in the first few paragraphs. (BTW very nicely walked around that hot bowl of mess!) First, Usenet was just as much of a dumpster fire as Reddit et al. in some branches ( alt. I am looking at you). The rest (comp. soc. sci. etc) were heavily self moderated. Second, I am not sure the author is clear on what is…

The whole idea of protocols instead of platforms is that there's no central owner to turn evil or foot the bill (having to make money to scale up to user growth can create a conflict of interest). Users aren't as locked-in as they would be on a closed platform. I wrote about this in detail last night: https://seirdy.one/2021/01/27/whatsapp-and-the-domestication... Users aren't necessarily the product in social media;…

What is to stop the inevitable roll up from a protocol into a platform?

The protocol is presumably quite open, searchable and crawlable. Any platform would simply start with a client, then improve upon it and eventually users would orbit the platform rather than the protocol.

Re: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

#275
post #78

I talk about this more in my blog post [0], but I think that the only viable way out of this mess if anti-trust laws ensure that social network companies who have more than X users need to use open and decentralized protocols. This would be much easier to achieve than trying to break up companies (not saying we shouldn't break them up). 0: https://canolcer.com/post/social-media-decentralized-by-law/

There is some irony in using centralization to break up centralization.

Consider the benefits that the governments have in only dealing with a few platforms rather than the headache of a protocol. I don't disagree the anti-trust sentiment, simply that the motivation won't be there at the end of the day.

Re: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there was the attempt at violent overthrow of a government... That's one difference.

Seemed like one of the poorest attempts I have ever seen, is it really being treated as a serious one?

I suppose when you want to smear half of the population you use what you got

Re: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

#277
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair. Comments on HN don't have a permalink, do they? If so I would have made reference to one that I actually commented on the downvoting of. Regarding your assessment of my comments, I'm beginning to wonder if your looking at mine and not someone else in the thread. I went looking for the "twice updated" one where I tell you all to have your way with me. I went right through my comment history and can't for…

every comment here has a permalink. tap on the timestamp.

So they do. Thanks. :-)

Re: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

#278
post #3

>a workable plan that enables more free speech, [...] That approach: build protocols, not platforms. To be clear, this is an approach that would bring us back to the way the internet used to be. The early internet involved many different protocols—instructions and standards that anyone could then use to build a compatible interface. As I've commented before[1][2], discussing protocols and advocating for them is a pop…

>If most of HN knows how to set up git and stand up a web server, why do most of use Github instead of running Gitlab on a home pc

You missed the point of the article. It wasn't advocating for everyone to run their own servers. git is a protocol, github is a site that wraps the protocol with its own rules. There's nothing wrong with that. Github is like the Gmail example of the article. Facebook is not.

It also wasn't advocating for zero moderation.

Re: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

#279
Reading the comments I think most people misunderstood the point (which is probably the author's fault).

I don't think he was saying that they're should be zero moderation, or that moderation is wrong at all.

I think his point was that there should be open protocols and then services that use those protocols with their own rules.

Examples of this IMO are HTTP, the telephone network and email. If you don't like your internet provider you can move to another one and you know that every single webpage will still be accessible through HTTP. The same way you can call any phone number, regardless of whether the person you're calling has the same phone company. The same way you can send an email from Gmail to Hotmail or any other email provider. The same is not true for Facebook or Whatsapp. Signal cannot message to Whatsapp.

The point is somewhat similar to the Adversarial interoperability EFF article.

Re: Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech (2019)

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not my comments I'm arguing for. I don't think I'm that hard-done-by. I'm referring to gray comments that don't seem to be particularly hostile, but are just, say, conservative (for example) in nature. Perhaps I've forgotten, but I don't think I've complained about being downvoted. Today doesn't count. It's not a complaint, just an observation in a thread about free speech and censorship. Thanks for the feedback…

I've heard people 'just ask questions' or 'make observations' or similar a million times before, and you most certainly have comments that fit the profile of what you've been arguing in favor of. It reads like a deflection, as a result. Moreover, this is kind of what I mean by comments that aren't falsifiable, that don't really add anything. You're not giving me anything to work with when you gesture vaguely to theor…

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, and in the interests of honesty, [1] is a comment that I thought was an example of one downvoted unfairly. It wasn't the first one I've seen downvoted where I thought "Why? It seems they just don't agree." And it probably won't be the last. But it is the first and only time where I've questioned the downvoting in a comment [2].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25737065 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25739135

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