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Average Rent in San Francisco Has Dropped $1k This Year

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Re: Average Rent in San Francisco Has Dropped $1k This Year

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have LVT proponents ever considered augmenting it with tax credits on the LVT for property improvements? To really hammer home incentives towards development in especially supply-strained markets such as S.F.

LVT is a tax only on the unimproved value of the land. Property improvements are not covered: the land owner gets to keep (or pass onto the renter) 100% of the value of such improvements. No tax credit is necessary; it's a natural consequence of how the tax is structured.

It sounds like GP understands that point and is positing a "what if the value of certain new improvements were taxed at a negative rate?" (rather than a zero rate)

Re: Average Rent in San Francisco Has Dropped $1k This Year

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, here's the thing: pipes can be built. Big pipes can replace small pipes. Plant capacity can be upgraded. Shocking, I know, but it's true.

So, rip up all the roads, start digging, and start upgrading? So, who pays for that? All the taxpayers, or the builders, or the potential new tenants?

You need to do this anyway, current infrastructure does not last forever. Electric lines, gas lines, optic cables, sewage systems, everything has a lifespan and at the end of the lifespan you either exchange it or risk cascading failures. At that moment, adding capacity for new construction is not a huge extra cost, especially if the density is high enough.

BTW, utility tunnel is a thing, and places like SF can probably afford some, to prevent disruptions to the surface.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_tunnel

We have about 90 km of utility tunnels in Prague, with a plan to expand the network to 120 km. Really helps in the historic centre.

Re: Average Rent in San Francisco Has Dropped $1k This Year

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure why, but a surprising number of people seem to have convinced themselves that supply and demand doesn’t apply to housing.

I think most people doubt supply and demand to some degree. How often have you seen someone argue we should secure the supply of food to disaster zones by repealing price gouging laws? Rent control is popular because many people believe, wrongly but wholeheartedly, that landlords are just price gougers and everyone could get cheap adequate housing if they weren’t manipulating it.

The supply and demand based solution to price gouging is to make the government guarantee access to the good at the desired price.

Price gouging laws themselves don't solve the problem.

If anything, the government can pretend that the problem has been solved and block any potential resolution. They can make the problem far worse.

I'll say it over and over again. If you want to fix the economics then you must fix physical reality.

Why does the government guarantee work? Because it will be the government's responsibility to fix the problem. If the government created laws that caused the problem then it will be forced to change those laws.

The classic price gouging example is the mask shortage where people will constantly say that manufacturers can't expand their supply fast enough so price gouging is inevitable and the duct tape fix is the only way to solve the problem. If you introduce a government price guarantee the government will be forced to buy existing masks off the private market and sell them for a lower price. Effectively subsidizing the manufacturers of the mask. The manufacturer can charge an increasing amount of money for the masks until it becomes profitable to expand production capacity immediately. What if greedy manufacturers gouge the government? The obligation to provide masks doesn't disappear because of a little greed. In fact, the government can just buy the manufacturers and build its own factories and completely remove the need for uncompetitive mask manufacturers. If anything, there is now immense pressure for private industry to stay relevant by offering prices lower than what the government is guaranteeing.

Re: Average Rent in San Francisco Has Dropped $1k This Year

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are bad faith arguments and therefore you are either debating in bad faith, or a dupe. San Francisco's gross water demand has been falling consistently for the last 50 years. Not per-capita. Gross. In 1998 the demand was 82 million gallons per day and in 2019 it was 63 million, with a population 17% greater. The more people you pile into a city, the less demand there is, because grossly wasteful activities like…

Not only is that very unnecessary strong language, but I find the types of squabbles around water rather unproductive. Sure, (referring to your other comment) one can see that efficient toilets have been productive in doing what they are supposed to do, but that also totally dismisses things like the fact that sewage systems designed/engineered in the past were created for specific flow rates that things like high ef…

You seem to be speaking about a theoretical water system, or one that relies on an aquifer that can be considered infinitely capacious, and which recharges from its own wastewater, but that's not the situation in which the SFPUC finds itself. It has one source and it relies on rain and snow falling in one single particular place. Therefore SFPUC has to treat its supply as limited in a way that an aquifer system that's effectively a closed loop doesn't need to worry about. SF's wastewater does not recharge its water supply in any predictable way.

Re: Average Rent in San Francisco Has Dropped $1k This Year

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More apartments built are the only thing to make housing more affordable for normal people What? No! Rent control is among other something that can lower the rent for normal people. I know SF has rent control, but currently it only applies as long as you don’t move.

Is this sarcastic? Rent control drives up rent. It doesn't make housing cheaper, it's just NIMBYism that renters get to participate in

What? rent control drives up rent like minimum wage drives wages down. There is some serious dissonance to the real world here.

Re: Average Rent in San Francisco Has Dropped $1k This Year

#277
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More apartments built are the only thing to make housing more affordable for normal people What? No! Rent control is among other something that can lower the rent for normal people. I know SF has rent control, but currently it only applies as long as you don’t move.

Maybe we should let government set pricing for everything then if rent control is so good.

No, not everything, but control a market that is out of control for a lot of people resulting in them not being able to afford a place to stay? Sure

Re: Average Rent in San Francisco Has Dropped $1k This Year

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rent control stops rent from going up, but how does it make rent go down?

Public housing would.

Yes the world needs more Housing Projects, those worked out very well in the past

Re: Average Rent in San Francisco Has Dropped $1k This Year

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mostly from quality-of-life reductions, like inferior showers, toilets, washing machines, etc. You can only reduce quality of life so much.

You're going to need to present some evidence for this, I think. I don't even know what an "inferior toilet" is. I've pooped in a lot of SF toilets and can assure you that they've all gotten the job done satisfactorily.

I've lived in California my whole life, and I have to agree with the sentiment that our water fixtures are not what they used to be 40 years ago. For example, the shower head we wanted to get is illegal in California, because the flow is too high. When we bought a new toilet we had to get the low flow toilet, which definitely clogs more than the old ones did.

What I don't agree with is that this bad. These are minor inconveniences. Sometimes I have to use the plunger, and the shower is less relaxing. Not a big deal. I'd rather that than water rationing.

Re: Average Rent in San Francisco Has Dropped $1k This Year

#280
post #92
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both. I spent the last decade having these conversations with people who also grew up here and can’t afford to remain here without staying with their parents, with some of the stranger conversations devolving into my counter parties brainstorming ways to kick tech people out of the City and stop new people from moving in altogether, as if freedom of movement in the United States wasn’t really a thing. It’s not “suppl…

> freedom of movement in the United States To the extent that this means the freedom of poor people to get out of the way of rich people, you can see how some would not be excited. SF's black population has fallen by half in recent decades, for example. Honestly, the geographic narrowness of the tech boom has always been weird. At the same time we've been selling the limitless power of the Internet to connect people,…

It's important to note that jurisdictions in the South Bay refuse to build more housing. Both Google and Facebook tried to but were blocked by the government.
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