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The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

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Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#271
post #172

This article was subsequently debunked by This American life, and many of the comments here are confused. Dr Kwak was a real person, and the letter contains historical facts linking it to him. His family says the letter is genuine. According to blind studies, the symptoms described in it are experienced by a small percentage of the population, but MSG is harmless to everyone else. The article links to the This Americ…

> Dr Kwak was a real person

"Dr Kwak" seems like an unfortunate typo for a doctor.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#272
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thurston County in WA, which is the seat of the state capital, has decided Asian people are not “people of color” anymore because they’re doing too well. https://reason.com/2020/11/16/equity-report-north-thurston-a...

Oh it’s worse than that: https://www.wsj.com/articles/can-school-be-antiracist-a-new-... Under a policy proposal by the Evanston, IL superintendent, white and Asian students would be held behind doing remote learning while other students were prioritized for return to in-class education. When people opposed the policy, they were called racists. The condemnation was worse for Asians who objected to their kids being gi…

Sure, it's an uncomfortable thing to say, but I hope we're not dismissing hypotheses because of how they make us feel.

More to the point - I agree with the comment above about how the term "racist" (and "white supremacist") makes people have fairly strong emotional reactions, and we'd probably have better discussions if we somehow avoided those words. But I hope we can move past them and analyze what this theory is saying to see if it's true. As a wise man once said: "If a statement is false, that's the worst thing you can say about it. You don't need to say that it's heretical. And if it isn't false, it shouldn't be suppressed."

So let me make an analogy. You and I both pay taxes to the US government (or so I assume), which on occasion does some pretty unethical things (cf. "We tortured some folks.") We also both benefit from living in a country that's so powerful that it can get away with unethical things; such a country also gives us all the opportunities in the world. We could object and refuse to be "collaborators," in one of several ways, whether by just arranging our work situation so we don't pay, or moving to another country, or whatever. But we don't - so we are choosing to be collaborators!

But no one really faults us for not doing so - while we all understand that if it weren't for the collective tax payments of all US taxpayers, the US military couldn't commit any war crimes, we are happy to say that the individual culpability of any tax payer is negligible.

And nobody really says that we're stripped of agency and our success isn't our own simply because we chose to e successful professionals in the US, even though if you dropped us into the median country, we'd certainly be less successful.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean that we don't care about not doing war crimes, or about the good of other countries! We, collectively, the taxpayers / voters, ought to hold our country and especially its military to a high moral standard, and ought to admit wrongdoing (and make restitution, where possible). If we fail to do that, it's a shame on our country. And we the taxpayers / voters need to ensure that the US is not what it is at the expense of other countries, and even above that, there is bipartisan support for foreign aid.

If we're comfortable with all of the above, and we don't think that anyone is making "f--ked up" claims about individual American taxpayers when they accuse the country of having committed war crimes or anyone is impugning the agency of individual American professionals when we call America the land of opportunity, I don't think we should shy away from analyses of the "model minority" that would say that collectively, across society, improvements could be made.

(And, as a child of Indian immigrants to a deeply segregated town in the South, I have seen first-hand that the rational thing for non-white non-black immigrants who care about their success and their children's success is to assimilate into the dominant culture. They have the choice, and it's an easy choice to make. The term "complicit in white supremacy" also provokes an emotional response, but it would be pretty hard to argue that such rational-acting parents who love their children are not, at least a little bit, comfortable with using the reality of race in America to improve their own standing by placing themselves in proximity to whiteness!)

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#273
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your claims aren’t back by data either. Your first paragraph is made up. https://samharris.org/can-pull-back-brink/ (I link Sam Harris because of his bigger point about people echoing talking points completely divorced from the data, as you have done. You can check his data sources.)

Wow, that was a lot of meandering I had to read through before Harris actually got to the point I think you're referencing. But I don't see him present any evidence. He starts by hand-waving away people who believe the opposite of what he believes, and then just basically says "only about 1000 people in total are killed by cops in the US every year, so this is a non-problem". Which... no, sorry, that's not how it wor…

> Finally, he tries to muddy the waters by essentially claiming black people seem to "deserve it" more, because apparently black people are involved in more crime than white people? Which, again, doesn't seem to be very well supported by data.

I don't think you're being fair to what he said. He said that black communities have higher crime rates, which should rightly deserve more police attention, hence their interaction with police on a per capita basis would increase.

You seem to be implying that cops are, subconsciously or not, more interested in using deadly force against black people than white people. The data you're using from statista seems to have many equally plausible explanations, but you've chosen to only accept the racism one.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#274

Dave Chang has a small scene in one of his Ugly Delicious (great show, by the way) episodes where he gets a group of non-Asian Americans, who claim to be MSG-allergic, to come and share their stories of MSG-related symptoms after eating at Chinese restaurants. He then hands out Doritos and American products that the participants claim they love and can eat all day. Hard to see where this is going... he says, all thes…

So if it was 'Polish' food and the same phenom existed, would we say 'racism'?

No, but probably some mild bits of cultural stereotypes, and frankly - there are good ones and bad ones.

As an example of 'positive' cultural stereotypes and possibly racism is 'Traditional Chinese Medicine' - the majority of the practice (all of it?) has zero scientific foundation and is essentially a sham, yet zillions of Westerners pay zillions of dollars for all sort of 'Ancient Chinese Knowledge' which is just quackery.

Finally, if there were a significant campaign to demonize 'Doritos' as 'plastic food' much in the same way some people feel about margarine, or hydrogenated fats ... and if we felt 'Chinese food' were 'always natural' then the opposite prejudices might occur.

The technical argument for 'racism' could be made but it would just be needlessly aggravating.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#275
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But your claims aren’t back by data either. Your first paragraph is made up. https://samharris.org/can-pull-back-brink/ (I link Sam Harris because of his bigger point about people echoing talking points completely divorced from the data, as you have done. You can check his data sources.)

Wow, that was a lot of meandering I had to read through before Harris actually got to the point I think you're referencing. But I don't see him present any evidence. He starts by hand-waving away people who believe the opposite of what he believes, and then just basically says "only about 1000 people in total are killed by cops in the US every year, so this is a non-problem". Which... no, sorry, that's not how it wor…

Canadians treat inuit like dogs. No one is saying the USA doesn't have a problem with racism. Racism is something that infests the American way of life totally. The obvious being said, the voices that speak for black people will find racism everywhere even if they have to create it themselves. Their victimhood is always the center of the universe. Even in this article which is about racism toward asians we are talking about black people. The most racist people I've ever met in my life have been black people. The only time I've been physically harmed because of something I've said has been due to black people. I'm so fucking tired of the world acting like they are perpetual victims when so many of their problems are self caused. Black activists always tell me injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere but when it's their own racism no one blinks an eye. Lebron James can't shut the fuck up about racism but he'll throw the Chinese under a bus to sell shoes. Black people have no problem with racism when it helps them and they are not then final arbitrars of racial justice.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#277
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thurston County in WA, which is the seat of the state capital, has decided Asian people are not “people of color” anymore because they’re doing too well. https://reason.com/2020/11/16/equity-report-north-thurston-a...

It's very strange to qualify the "of color" designation on the basis of socioeconomic parity. Are multi generational pockets of poverty-stricken caucasians granted "of color" status by Thurston County?

[deleted]

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There exists a medical controversy over the effects of MSG. That’s not true. >> most potent yet least expensive flavour enhancers available Salt is approx 1/4 the price, as is sugar. >> I've inadvertently done the double-blind "Is MSG harmful" test too many times Cheese, tomatoes, it would be hard to avoid it. What kind of restrictions do you need to follow?

>> There exists a medical controversy over the effects of MSG. > That’s not true. Of course it's true. Otherwise why would the fine article exist? >> most potent yet least expensive flavour enhancers available > Salt is approx 1/4 the price, as is sugar. Both of which are also overused in the American food industry. Every new tool (flavour enhancer) enables the creation of new snacks. Do you think that Doritos would…

> Of course it's true. Otherwise why would the fine article exist?

There can be a "controversy" which isn't taken seriously by any experts. See: Flat Earth.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, you think it's wrong to suggest there's racism involved in MSG's reputation tying back to "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome", and on the other hand, you offer an axiomatic derivation of Chinese restaurants being unhealthy ("histamines") because of their "reputation for not being the freshest".

To be fair, the poster said "the Chinese restaurants they go to..." Not necessarily all. But it's a weak argument... I wonder how much is from blood sugar spikes from white rice and everyone's favorite Americanized sugar glazed Chinese dishes combined with the MSG nocebo effect.

Where I'm from, Asian cuisine is not very popular with older generations - probably because they didn't grow up with it. It has only recently garnered enough popularity to establish successful chains (aside from highly Americanized options like Panda Express, PF Changs, or HuHot).

Small, independent, "Ma & Pa" type restaurants vary much more in quality than established chains. When your only options for Asian food are those kinds of restaurants - and a limited selection at that - it's not surprising for bad quality to sometimes be associated with the cuisine.

I still have to drive far out of my way to find good Indian food, despite living in a metropolitan area. Which is a shame, because I really enjoy it.

Re: The Strange Case of Dr. Ho Man Kwok (2019)

#280
The problem is, modern Chinese food rely too much on MSG(or its alternatives, along with chilies), it has its justification that Chinese are only relative rich recently, that people needed a way to make cabbages and other non-meat stuff tasty, in this sense, Chinese food is defined by it, unfortunately. I honestly can't imagine how they tasted way back then, coz it must be awful.

But the thing is MSG is like drugs, you seemingly need ever more of it. That's why I don't really like modern Chinese eateries, they might taste fantastic, but I know they are constantly search for the next MSG-derivative that can "wow" people(in fact MSG is realy outdated, it's mowhere to been seen in China now, there are countless stronger synthetic flavor "essence" in the market.)

I actively avoid it myself, dishes just taste fake, only add it when like I'm doing a seaweed soup.

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