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Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

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271–280 of 460 posts

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#271
Perhaps it's inevitable that there is crossover between those passionate about ethics and those who are activists, but there is clearly then a danger that there will - ironically - be a bias in recruitment in ethics teams towards activists.

If they themselves are then recruiting others "that fit in" there is an even greater risk that activists of a particular stripe will be overrepresented on teams like this, which imbalance (especially with regard to corporate culture) will inevitably lead to these sorts of clashes and overreaches.

After this has blown over, Google will do well to look deeply at the potential biases within recruitment in this particular area to ensure diversity of opinion is reflected; and further, that these teams are not siloed (as teams often are) to counter the echo chamber effect that appears possibly to have jumped straight from social media into the working environment here.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#272
post #99

My god, people need to calm down. I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. If their employer is knowingly engaging in illegal activity then by all means, be a whistle blower and set ultimatums, but this has gone too far. If you have a problem with the motivations of your employer or how it handles various sensitive issues then start preparing for interv…

>> For example, I don't hear a lot about the walkouts at Exxon or at Raytheon. Maybe the world would be a better place if we did. At least "My god, people need to calm down." isn't really an argument.

Maybe works like Faust have deep resonance with people because we all make deals with the devil and are conflicted and make choices that balance not good vs evil or even evil vs some other evil but a whole menu of ambiguous options against each other.

It's the self-righteous who are the real enemies, not the people who knowingly make the best of whatever resigned compromises they find themselves forced to make.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#273
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what, someone being born in Europe does not automatically make them white. It just seems fishy to me. When she’s getting this amount of privilege from “being black”, saying that she identifies as black when she is clearly not black should not be enough.

Well, seems like other black people recognize her as black too, so I don't know what else can you expect. A person identifies as part of a group and the group agrees. It's kind of like asking if Obama is really African American/Black. Races aren't sharply divided, it's a social grouping thing based on history, culture, etc.

Blacks of the tech liberal elite consider her black. That’s not representative.

Obama has clear facial features of a black person. This woman does not have them. She even looks like she got a perm just to look more black.

Let’s agree to disagree ;)

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#274

Wow, Google's ethical AI group sounds like the most toxic group of individuals I've ever heard of. I'm going to sidestep the debate about whether Gebru was "fired" or she "resigned", because that debate primarily centers on how one defines the words. But clearly she did do this: She sent a letter that made a bunch of (IMO) outrageous demands, outrageous because it essentially attacked other people at the company, and…

Even reading just your own, clearly biased, summary, it sounds like you are describing "worker solidarity". People just shrug when "leadership" at a company fires people randomly, places bad managers on good teams, demands unwarranted apologies from workers and makes everyone obey arbitrary demands. But when a group of employees try to take any of these powers into their own hands they are immediately written off as…

You're raising an ethics concern. Strangely, no self-styled 'ethicist' lavishly employed by BigTech appears to be interested in such a topic. It's almost as if the answer to why BigTech hires a certain brand of loudmouth 'ethicists' is to DDOS the public space and keep questions about economic inequality levels that surpass even the Gilded Era from gaining any traction.

https://inequality.org/great-divide/america-2018-more-gilded...

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#275
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yet when a woman of color does it Maybe the reason it isn't praised in this case isn't due to her being a woman of color but due to other differences in this case and those that are praised?

If that were the case there wouldn't be "Tensions in Google's ethical AI group" would there be? Read the article, clearly the team, and many Google employees, were angered by this. Perhaps we shouldn't just sweep it under the rug. It seems there is very real merit, this was not just a disgruntled employee. The subject matter is directly related to diversity - to remove race is to, again, cover up the systemic race is…

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Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#276
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm not really trying to defend Google one way or the other. At the end of the day it seemed like Gebru published a paper that was quite critical of how Google intends to make a sizable portion of their revenue, and anyone should understand that when you do that in a large company, it's going to get extra scrutiny. And it could very well be that the whole purpose of Google's "ethical AI" team in the first plac…

Google claims to be a place where academics can do research. Censoring a critical paper goes against that. I’m not a fan of Timnit, but in this case she is right to make a stink. It’s not like her job was to write ad copy.

Is "having standards for what Google pursues for publications" really censorship? I think we'd need additional evidence to say so. If this isn't the first paper Google has stopped when an internal anonymous reviewer gives the red light, it sounds like they're just following their own process for quality control. Maybe the debate should be whether it is the best process for quality control.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#277
post #99

My god, people need to calm down. I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. If their employer is knowingly engaging in illegal activity then by all means, be a whistle blower and set ultimatums, but this has gone too far. If you have a problem with the motivations of your employer or how it handles various sensitive issues then start preparing for interv…

>> For example, I don't hear a lot about the walkouts at Exxon or at Raytheon. Maybe the world would be a better place if we did. At least "My god, people need to calm down." isn't really an argument.

Exactly. When did indifference and apathy become a virtue?

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#278
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A black woman? How is she black?

She's Eritrean-born and identifies as Black. Races aren't an exact science but social constructs. There's a gradual continuum in people's appearance along geographical areas, linking Sub-Saharan west Africa where most slaves were taken from in the Atlantic slave trade, to East Africa, to North Africa and the Middle East, to the Mediterranean coast, to central Europe to Scandinavia to Siberia to Central Asia to East A…

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Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#279
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't the honourable thing be to first try to change how Google behaves and only if unsuccessful resign? Why is the assumption that employees shouldn't even try to influence the direction of their company? Why is doing so considered a tantrum?

> first try to change how Google behaves By, say, attempting to publish papers and have internal discussions about it?

I don't have all the facts here and neither, I believe, do you, and we don't know what recourses have been tried. My point is just that I find strange the view that the company is entitled to do anything as long as it's legal while employees aren't, and are expected to either leave or stay and shut up.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#280
post #30

One thing I've wondered: what is the purpose of Google's ethical AI group? What utility does it provide to the corporation? I suspect the primary motivation for funding ethical AI work is _public relations_ (or less kindly, corporate propaganda) - to help mitigate damage to Google's brands and reputation by public concern surrounding artificial intelligence. It is well understood that it can be difficult to get someo…

A less synical conclusion would be that the longterm viability of a AI-centric company like Google benefits a lot of reasonable development in the early stages. If Google can avoid ethical hiccups it might provoke less regulation and provoke it later. All else equal, being a reasonable and ethical company IS good business. Problems arise with ethics and business collide.

This kind of liability mitigation use case is at odds with academic freedom. Your view would imply making AI part of your InfoSec / CyberOps team, not an academic research group.
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