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Self-Hosting Still Pays

servethehome.com

271–280 of 343 posts

Re: Self-Hosting Still Pays

#271
post #8

I see so often developers state something along the lines of, "We need to go with AWS!" (sometimes substituting AWS with GCP or Azure) and the reason they always give is "scalability". 99% of the time, what they're building not only doesn't need to scale to that degree but they somehow seem to think that it's always inherently cheaper. Meanwhile, when I build something for a client my first go-to is something like Di…

I work with small businesses, and 90% of the time, they are better served by running a few VMs in a 1U Xeon-powered rackmount Synology or the like. Does it have a lot of compute power? No. Is it dirt-simple to admin, and have enough horsepower to do the simple things like run a QuickBooks server on a Windows VM, Fileshare on another, test on a third, etc that is all they usually need? Absolutely! It isn't uncommon at…

"Is it dirt-simple to admin,"

Often it's not though.

It's a pain to admin for someone who knows nothing about it, and it's also a pain to have to do anything at all!

The power of the cloud for smaller shops is that the don't have to know what Synology is, or even give it a thought.

That you click point-click and set up an EC2 with some S3 and get rid of most admin knowledge/know-how is like magic.

That's the best reason to use it, even it costs 1-3x as much.

Once there is A) stability and predictability in requirements and B) sufficient scale - then - we can hire smart people such as yourself who know better, to set up something relatively simple, that will be relatively low maintenance (i.e. whatever you bill) and save some $.

Think Development vs. Operations cost.

If in dev, we have to wait for, mess with, configure things, it's very expensive, delays etc. and we don't want that.

Once there's enough predictability to determine 'unit cost' on the services side ... then you can 'cut costs' by moving to a slow-changing, custom solution, that is hopefully 'simple', as you say.

Re: Self-Hosting Still Pays

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no need to have anyone on call yourself to drive to the colo, since any decent colocation provider will have staff on-site 24/7 to perform any physical intervention required. Part of that you pay through your colocation bill and part you pay by the hour (depending on your contract/provider).

They're doing their own routing. Will the colo tech fix their iptables if they mess them up and can't ssh?

Does Amazon fix routing load balancers if someone messes it up?

Re: Self-Hosting Still Pays

#273
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that in smaller places time is of the essence I we don't have enough to learn the full extent of AWS and I'll save my time and money by using a droplet. Learning AWS does have a cost. Money I'd rather spend on learning and mastering standard, open and portable systems.

> Money I'd rather spend on learning and mastering standard, open and portable systems. That's where Terraform comes in.

And I'm learning it, to set up my dedicated instance using open protocols and standards. Your argument is moot.

Re: Self-Hosting Still Pays

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and people posting similar answers miss a very important point. You've mentioned you have over 10 years of experience managing rack servers. That's super great! This means a company that hires you does not need to use AWS for some of the services, because you've got the necessary expertise to do it yourself. Other companies buy this expertise via fully managed services, like S3 or Aurora. Once you have expertise…

This is a startup/business/tech forum, I am a founder of a 20 person business (hiring 7 more) that does this part-time because it's very low maintenance. I am finally hiring a devops person to handle the command line side of things, though I am still pretty happy to dink around at the datacenter every once in a while. I taught myself as I went. I save about 10x over AWS. I would likely make the same decision today if…

I think the trouble is a lot of developers have little to no insight into the business side of things and treat that initial AWS credit + follow-on VC funding as this magic money fountain. If you're a founder you understand a dollar saved is a dollar that keeps your doors open longer or a dollar into your pocket.

Re: Self-Hosting Still Pays

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's freedom. AWS or any cloud service is anything but freedom. So please use the word freedom judiciously. If you are working with AWS your application and your whole organization is at the whims of Amazon. You will not even be able to migrate if you are tied into those API's and services because they are not same across cloud providers. You don't even own the data or compute resource hosted on such cloud services…

> If you are working with AWS your application and your whole organization is at the whims of Amazon. Part of freedom is the freedom to do stupid things. > You will not even be able to migrate if you are tied into those API's and services because they are not same across cloud providers. VPCs, Instances, Load Balancers and Storage are roughly-equivalent everywhere and the differences between are mostly-trivial. For t…

> VPCs, Instances, Load Balancers and Storage are roughly-equivalent

Worked enough as preferred partner with all 3 major cloud providers to know that roughly equivalent does not mean equal and efforts are significant. e.g. self-hosted haproxy or nginx is much better than those load balancers as each provider has their own set of API's. So please do not underestimate the efforts.

> If you think this doesn't also apply to your physical racks in datacenters

Self-hosted means more than just datacenters, can be within office or home. So it's not easy to shut. Also there are numerous examples of aws account suspended with all services blocked just based on one sided terms of service not even a legal notice requirement.

As I said earlier most people trade freedom for convenience and that's what cloud service is. Its not freedom but slavery to convenience.

> stick to running instances

What's running is not the question here, but freedom and ownership.

Here its still an issue of who owns the resources and data within those resources. Buried within terms of service and agreement its the cloud provider who is a judge, jury and executioner.

> With a warrant, the authorities will come and take your shit.

It's very hard to get a warrant from a court for a legitimate business to confiscate their resources (bar is just too high) vs a notice via an email to a cloud provider for perceived infringment (indeed most cloud provider have dedicated contacts for government notices and implementation, given they also provide services to government agencies). Also targeting individual self-hosted infrastructure is very costly. Examples you are presenting are just to create FUD, majority of the self-hosted infrastructure in the world is for legitimate purpose and true freedom.

Re: Self-Hosting Still Pays

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "they give you rope to hang yourself with." That's not a triviality - C++ has the same problem, if you have a single ezpert individual it's great, but if you have a team, and some are very green, it will be a nightmare.

Here we are in agreement. Thing is though, people who well-understand AWS/Azure/Google are plentiful (but expensive) in the industry at this point. Small startups can't afford to have junior talent.

Small startups use junior talent for most services. They are not hiring the best hr team, marketing, sales and development. They don't have unless amount of money. They will pick one or two areas where they have an advantage and hire a strong person or two.

Re: Self-Hosting Still Pays

#277
post #138

I have my own 1/2 cab, AS number, ARIN allocated IP4 and IP6 space. It costs about $500/mo. It took maybe 100 hours to set up the basics and $6000 for the way I built the hw (which is similar to servethehome's rack). I run everything on FreeBSD. I get to directly talk BGP and get bandwidth at .12c/gbit. Nothing else can come close to this level of low cost, control, learning, and autonomy.

.12c/gbit?? I need to renegotiate my transit bill...

d'oh, I meant mbps commit not gbit :S

Re: Self-Hosting Still Pays

#278
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work with small businesses, and 90% of the time, they are better served by running a few VMs in a 1U Xeon-powered rackmount Synology or the like. Does it have a lot of compute power? No. Is it dirt-simple to admin, and have enough horsepower to do the simple things like run a QuickBooks server on a Windows VM, Fileshare on another, test on a third, etc that is all they usually need? Absolutely! It isn't uncommon at…

"Is it dirt-simple to admin," Often it's not though. It's a pain to admin for someone who knows nothing about it, and it's also a pain to have to do anything at all! The power of the cloud for smaller shops is that the don't have to know what Synology is, or even give it a thought. That you click point-click and set up an EC2 with some S3 and get rid of most admin knowledge/know-how is like magic. That's the best rea…

The (vast) majority of small businesses are not out to grow as fast as possible, seeking that big money valley exit. Most are family operations that seek to stay at whatever size that might encompass. FWIW.

Re: Self-Hosting Still Pays

#279
post #156

You don't even need to buy a new EPYC or Xeon Scalable system. A 20 core Xeon v3/v4 system with 128gb of ram can be had off lease for $1000. Psychz.net provides 1u colocation with 1/Gbs link (10/Gbs burst) for $80/mo. Equivalent EC2 is $300-600/month with no better reliability. Plus you have to deal with noisy neighbors and bandwidth overages. Build your baseline usage in colo and burst into AWS unless you like buyin…

> A 20 core Xeon v3/v4 system with 128gb of ram Where's the most affordable to buy an off-lease server? I currently have a stock scanning project that I'd like to take online where I'd need 128gb RAM+, 2TB+ drive space, and 20-60 cores (more the better).

Shockingly, ebay. Search Dell r730/r630 or Supermicro v3. You won't reasonably get more than 36 cores/72 threads in a single box. I just looked and you could easily spec out the system you describe for under $1000. Possibly even less if you want to use mechanical disks.

Re: Self-Hosting Still Pays

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point that you're making here is subtle and that people are missing it. Your small team can _comfortably manage_ 50k/mo worth of AWS resources. That's _INCREDIBLE_. I think people mistakenly think that cloud costs only go up exponentially and that costs are an unmanageable mess. I've worked with teams with hundreds of engineers serving a major enterprise and only an AWS bill 3-5x yours. And they only had…

> To do similar with physical servers requires a massive stack of people and salaries. The ongoing recruiting costs to maintain staffing would dwarf what the AWS bill is. No no they wouldn't. Number of people is equal for both, its just different tasks they have to do.

I do both at roughly 10^5 scale and I'm telling you that operating in the cloud lets us operate with an order of magnitude less people.
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