‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#271

Post by 2-tpg » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 1:13 AM UTC

slg wrote: post #249

2-tpg wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not work that way (logically). Listing a 100 weak, baseless arguments is a debating tactic to confuse your opponents, not allowing them to address and debunk specifics (and if they still manage: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"). It also creates the appearance of smoke. More likely: There is a activist political trend now, that has picked up a lot of steam. In that political view, society is racist,…

>It does not work that way (logically). Maybe it doesn't work like that in high school debate clubs, but it works like that in the law. Look up concepts like circumstantial evidence and disparate impact. We can infer someone is guilty of a crime from a collection of evidence suggesting they are guilty even without direct evidence. We can also punish someone for discrimination simply for exhibiting a pattern of discri…

Take it to court then. Collect circumstantial evidence and allow for an objective ruling on discrimination and racism in the workplace. If the circumstantial he-said she-said is of any substance, you can prove your guilt.

Don't do trial by (social) media. Especially when your accusations are incredibly heavy and damaging. Don't play judge when you are not capable of objectively looking at all the presented evidence.

Coinbase presented their side of the story: nothing went to court. No investigation found anything of substance. If the circumstantial evidence was so strong to hold up in court, why didn't it?

For the law, intent is of utmost importance. For (social) media, just "circumstantial evidence" of exhibiting patterns of discrimination is enough to act. It is not enough to act, if you are a decent person.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#272

Post by cbthrow91 » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 1:14 AM UTC

0xB31B1B wrote: post #237

cbthrow91 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work on a diverse team at CB that has engagement scores through the roof. And you don't need to know the survey data to know that; just join us for lunch. We're curious, we care about each other, and we care about the mission. The NYTimes is like the Daily Prophet for muggles. Don't over-index on a hit piece.

You mention diversity. Do any black folks work on your team? Do you think it’s possible that black engineers are treated well and black CX are treated poorly?

On my direct team nope. I can imagine folks being treated differently in Eng vs CX at other companies, and have seen that. I have trouble imagining that at CB, but anything's possible.

CB stands out in my career for the number of good human beings I've gotten to meet and work with. And my read when I see Brian, Emilie, Surojit, and Manish speak at weekly AMAs is they genuinely care about everyone in the company. It's a gut instinct, and so far I have no personal experience or anecdotal from within my circles to the contrary.

My sister used to work in CX (outside of tech) and it was really damaging work for her. It'd be devastating for me to learn our folks are not supported.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#273

Post by wwright » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 1:14 AM UTC

blub wrote: post #250

throwmylifawy wrote: post #214

Reading through the comments as black person is depressing. Many of the comments question whether the accusations are even true or collusive attack because of an unfounded accusation that black people tend to be SJWs (stereotyping). Others blame affirmative-action, bad schools, etc. (classic misdirection). Some even venture into the possibility that a black person complaining about being passed over for promotion mig…

When accusations of racism are being thrown around carelessly and people are having their reputations destroyed and lives turned upside down because of a single thing they (allegedly) said, the potential future targets of these accusations realize that the stakes just became much higher for them. So why would they support and enable those that might come for their own heads next? It's rational to be antagonistic in s…

Do you have any evidence that reputations are being destroyed by unfounded accusations of racism to a significant degree?

Secondly, have you compared that to the damage inflicted by racists not being held accountable in society currently?

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#274

Post by demarq » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 1:15 AM UTC

blub wrote: post #250

throwmylifawy wrote: post #214

Reading through the comments as black person is depressing. Many of the comments question whether the accusations are even true or collusive attack because of an unfounded accusation that black people tend to be SJWs (stereotyping). Others blame affirmative-action, bad schools, etc. (classic misdirection). Some even venture into the possibility that a black person complaining about being passed over for promotion mig…

When accusations of racism are being thrown around carelessly and people are having their reputations destroyed and lives turned upside down because of a single thing they (allegedly) said, the potential future targets of these accusations realize that the stakes just became much higher for them. So why would they support and enable those that might come for their own heads next? It's rational to be antagonistic in s…

that point of view is only because you feel that someone could come after you with a false accusation. but you need to see it as a feeling rather than a rational decision you made

people say the same about sexual harassment accusations, once a video, or admittance comes out silence...

most of the times people want there to be videos and solid evidence to believe - but you yourself know that in 2020 we have members of the police force actively killing an meting out their own law upon black people

why is is so hard to believe that behind closed doors people can act and behave in discriminatory ways towards black people?

shall we start walking with little microphones and cameras to work? is this what black people should deal with going to work?

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#275

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 1:16 AM UTC

adjkant wrote: post #258

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there other non-crypto political stances Coinbase has taken? It seems to me that this was just the first time they needed such a policy. I certainly wouldn't have anticipated the possibility of a new political slogan that almost every major company is forced to chant.

Many companies regularly work within mainstream political action such as LGTBQ+ rights, data privacy, homelessness, local housing or public works, and children's orgs such as Big Brother Big Sister. While these vary in controversiality, relevancy, and apolitical nature, it's not at all uncommon to see companies working in these areas (and others unlisted). Often companies grow into them along with size and profits, s…

If Wired's reporting is accurate (https://www.wired.com/story/turmoil-black-lives-matter-polit...), Coinbase did try to ride the line, but a bunch of activists demanded for Armstrong to publicly chant the slogan and eventually went on strike until he did.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#276

Post by arcticbull » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 1:17 AM UTC

0-_-0 wrote: post #265

ironchef wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The majority of the protests were mostly peaceful. https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-vi... Police brutality is real https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

Police are mostly peaceful

Without taking a meaningful position here, how do you differentiate between the individuals on the street who are generally poor and powerless (and if you take them at their word, disenfranchised), while the police are backed by the institution, carrying military weapons, and legally empowered to use violence to stop them?

This is a question I have struggled with, so I'm curious what your take is, and that of the rest of the community here.

In the platonic ideal, of course, the protesters would be peaceful and affable people. On the other hand, in a platonic ideal, nobody would need to be protesting in the first place.

Similarly, in the platonic ideal, police would be kind and friendly, but of course, then they wouldn't be defending the state from these individuals in the first place.

So, where does that leave us?

tl;dr: Does the situation change if we frame the protestors as "mostly poor, powerless and disenfranchised" and the police as "mostly powerful, backed by the largesse of the state and largely militarized" in this specific time and place?

[edit] In a way, I would argue that the police are entrusted with using violence - in the right time and place - and are rarely held accountable for failing to do so. It's not the police' use of violence people are protesting in general (after all this is the monopoly they have been granted), but rather their lack of accountability for failing to do their jobs in the instances that they do.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#277

Post by mattmanser » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 1:17 AM UTC

SamReidHughes wrote: post #198

mattmanser wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be accepting of one race and still be racist against another. Racism means discrimination against a particular group or groups. It's not mutually exclusive, you don't get a free pass for thinking Asians are great while still persecuting Black people. So you're the one redefining the meaning of the word.

No, he's defining the meaning as you put it, or compatibly with it. And taking the claims in the article at face value -- not people's feelings, but the specific facts asserted -- it's clear Coinbase hasn't been persecuting black people.

No, this is exactly what he said, laid out in argument form:

Premise 1: Tech companies are often accused of racism (any, not coinbase, neither of us mentioned coinbase)

Premise 2: Tech companies often contain a much larger % of Asians, a minority

Premise 3: (implied) having a disproportionate % of any one minority makes you non-racist

Conclusion: Therefore Tech companies are not racist

The conclusion does not follow because premise 3 is wrong. You can be racist about other minorities even while enthusiastically supporting one minority group.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#278

Post by oh_sigh » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 1:18 AM UTC

worker767424 wrote: post #227

oh_sigh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you believe that all the white employees just laughed about this? Did any of them corroborate the allegations? I work at a FAANG and a massive percentage of employees are rabidly anti-racist, and wouldn't stand for anything like that. Are coinbase employees just cut from a different cloth?

> I work at a FAANG and a massive percentage of employees are rabidly anti-racist, and wouldn't stand for anything like that. I get nervous when I make a comment about Zoom being insecure because it's Chinese around Chinese coworkers, and I can at least point to its bad track record on security and how Five Eyes members are treating Huawei.

I'm not sure I fully understand your point, but it might be worth adjusting your language a little bit to account for a quirk of our language(in that Chinese could refer to the nationality, or the government): I assume your problem with Zoom is its association with the CCP, and not just that it is merely Chinese.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#279

Post by SamReidHughes » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 1:18 AM UTC

SamReidHughes wrote: post #182

snypher wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't bother replying to something you know will be flagged, as now we have no context for your comments.

You can turn on showdead, and if people are flagging simply because they love to censor, you can vouch the comments too.

It looks like the censorship is HN-approved.

Oh well.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#280

Post by tptacek » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 1:18 AM UTC

Sacho wrote: post #266

throwmylifawy wrote: post #214

Reading through the comments as black person is depressing. Many of the comments question whether the accusations are even true or collusive attack because of an unfounded accusation that black people tend to be SJWs (stereotyping). Others blame affirmative-action, bad schools, etc. (classic misdirection). Some even venture into the possibility that a black person complaining about being passed over for promotion mig…

I apologize in advance because you seem to be emotionally invested in this, but I really do not understand the questions you pose in your comment. What did you actually expect from the discussion? Were there not enough comments against Coinbase? Were there not enough comments outraged about the perceived racist behavior of it? Do you think none of those commenters "imagine the possibility that racism is a problem in…

You appear to be arguing with the comment you wish that person had written, not they one they actually wrote. The actual comment is specific about the pattern of problematic comments they observed:

* They suggest that Black people are in general SJWs

* They attempt to litigate affirmative action rather than the claims in the article

* They argue that Black employees passed over for promotion were underqualified.

* They dismiss the entire article on the basis of it having appeared in the New York Times.

Take issues with any of these specific complaints if you want, but don't pretend that the comment simply said "there aren't enough anti-Coinbase comments here", because they didn't say that at at all.