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Hire people who give a shit

alexw.substack.com

271–280 of 342 posts

Re: Hire people who give a shit

#271

Scale's GlassDoor Reviews from ex-employees are fairly telling https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Scale-Reviews-E1656849.htm...

These[1][2] are telling. [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Scale-RVW3... [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Scale-RVW3...

”Extreme micro-management, incompetent managers don't trust what they don't know.”

This feels like an eye opener for me. Not in a negative way, but it explains why some get the praise of all the colleagues around them but never from the boss. Which also explains why priorities are sometimes out of whack.

Is there any books about this?

Re: Hire people who give a shit

#272
post #268
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Not to mention expecting people to work 60+ hours a week is direct discrimination against people who give a shit about their {mental health, diet, cardiovascular health, family, friends}.

A further problem for those of us who are adults with at least a decade or more of experience in this industry is that Wang is practically a child, and that means 100% certainty that he does not have the leadership experience to either convincingly swagger or lead a company. He needs to dial down the attitude on posts like this and learn from startup leaders who understand what success and healthy work/life balance l…

[deleted]

Re: Hire people who give a shit

#273
post #166

Maybe my opinion is atypical compared to a lot of the comments here, but I'm of the belief that if you treat your team members not just fairly but well, invest in them, genuinely care about them, and trust/empower them, then the overall sentiment of the article makes a lot of sense. I'm not a big fan of the current state of the world where people hop careers every couple years and are always looking for new opportuni…

Your nuance is lost to the author: "For an obsessed person, it’s always worth it."

Re: Hire people who give a shit

#274
>> How many hours were you working a week?

This question immediately tells me the recruitment process is done on my side. The answer is hire more people.

As a developed society we need to make it illegal / strongly penalized to work more than 40h/week on average. Calculated monthly, no carry-over.

Children need our time, other activities beside work are needed in order to stay healthy.

Companies like to pick the most talented people with lowest selfesteam who will allow themselves being manipulated into working 60h weeks.

Re: Hire people who give a shit

#275

This article is megalomaniacal. Insisting that your company with 200+ employees will only hire people who will work themselves to the bone without any mention of how those people will be properly compensated is wild corporate propaganda. I honestly don’t know why the tech industry continues to capitulate to leaders like this who obviously, and loudly, mistreat and dehumanize their employees by insisting that if you a…

This mirrors the sentiment of many people on HN are heavily against the idea of doing anything more than 9-5, and prefer to live the relaxed engineer life collecting paychecks and tending to their microbrews. Maybe the hatred stems from that there exists a large pool of engineers that are passionate about their work and are okay not measuring their work as "hours per week". And that makes the pool of engineers that d…

I used to be that workaholic who worked crazy hours and had "passion" for the job. Thing is, it's not sustainable in the long run no matter how much you love it. It might be OK in your twenties. But you're not going to be doing that for four decades. You need to live a life outside work as well. Otherwise you'll be a burned out wreck with crippling RSI.

For the record, I did get crippling RSI in my early thirties and this forced a drastic reevaluation of my priorities. Eight years later, and the RSI is manageable but only because I completely changed my lifestyle. Part of that is only working a regular workday, and doing other stuff outside that time. Like running and mountain biking. I quit my "second job" as a Debian developer and general open source contributor because of that. I still do some, but it's strictly casual with no commitments. That's the price for not being physically crippled. You've got to consider your long-term health. Sitting at a desk is terrible for your body. Doing it in the evenings as well is even worse.

Regarding not looking desirable. I think you're a bit off about that. Sane people and sane companies do not work themselves and their staff to death. They want people to be able to work over the longer term, and not burn out. In most of the places I've worked at, working out of hours has been strictly frowned upon. If you can't do your assigned tasks within work hours, that indicates a management failure in assigning you too much work, or in underestimating how long it would take, or in overestimating your capabilities. There is a reason we do all of the sprint planning and backlog refinement. It's to ensure no one is over- or under-worked over the long term by having a consistent and (most importantly) sustainable workload. If someone did find themselves having to work longer hours, the first thing they should do is tell their manager and get the situation fixed. Not to pull out all the stops and burn the midnight oil.

The younger me would have been that person. But part of getting more experience is learning to say "no". No matter how much work you do, there will always be more work the next day. And you will rarely be thanked or acknowledged for going above and beyond the call of duty; ultimately you have to look out for your own self-interest as well as the interests of the company. Sometimes there are good reasons to work overtime, but that should never be a routine part of your existence.

My personal experience of people who work crazy hours is that they wear their "heroic" efforts like a badge of honour, but the work itself is often terrible. (And I include myself here.) When called out upon this during code review, you get excuses like "yes, but it was 2am on Saturday". "OK, but it's Tuesday now, why didn't you review it in the cold light of day and fix all of these obvious defects? We don't lower the bar just because you chose to work late while very tired."

Keep yourself healthy and sane for the long haul.

Re: Hire people who give a shit

#276
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mirrors the sentiment of many people on HN are heavily against the idea of doing anything more than 9-5, and prefer to live the relaxed engineer life collecting paychecks and tending to their microbrews. Maybe the hatred stems from that there exists a large pool of engineers that are passionate about their work and are okay not measuring their work as "hours per week". And that makes the pool of engineers that d…

I used to be that workaholic who worked crazy hours and had "passion" for the job. Thing is, it's not sustainable in the long run no matter how much you love it. It might be OK in your twenties. But you're not going to be doing that for four decades. You need to live a life outside work as well. Otherwise you'll be a burned out wreck with crippling RSI. For the record, I did get crippling RSI in my early thirties and…

> but it's Tuesday now, why didn't you review it in the cold light of day and fix all of these obvious defects?

Did someone react like that for real after 2am Saturday work? (sounds a bit callous to me also when 2am was a bad idea)

Re: Hire people who give a shit

#277
Being a person who does give a shit, having such people could be advantageous to the overall and long-term quality of the product.

However, hiring such people has the problem of identifying them. I don't fare particularly well in interviews; most of the opportunities I have excelled in happened via internal movements.

I have difficulty when coupled with bosses that have the attitude but don't have the necessary chops because accepting shitty decisions by the way of "I'm-getting-paid-why-do-I-care" is quite difficult (though this becomes easier with age/perspective). Giving shit also has impact on stress level of the employee in situations when wrong choices are made.

Re: Hire people who give a shit

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can empathize with the merits of this idea but I also agree that such cult worship of a business idea is absurd. There is a massive gap between the output of passionate people who go the extra mile to provide original solutions in the highest quality way versus people who watch the clock and press buttons on a keyboard. The biggest problem is how to achieve maximum talent. The solution is ownership and setting high…

What about those who are intrinsically motivated?

It's a good question, and I think the article's author unfortunately brings two different things together:

i) People who are intrinsically motivated to do good work, regardless of who it is for. Personality psychologists call this quality conscientiousness, and it's as predictive of good outcomes as intelligence.

ii) People who are willing to sacrifice all other aspects of their life in their employer's interest.

Hiring type i people is an admirable goal. Hiring and taking advantage of type ii people is not.

Re: Hire people who give a shit

#279

>> How many hours were you working a week? This question immediately tells me the recruitment process is done on my side. The answer is hire more people . As a developed society we need to make it illegal / strongly penalized to work more than 40h/week on average. Calculated monthly, no carry-over. Children need our time, other activities beside work are needed in order to stay healthy. Companies like to pick the mos…

Does this require government intervention/meddling though? Or said differently, “what are the downsides of banning this?”

Plenty of people prefer to work long hours (I know I did for two decades before having kids, as in genuinely enjoyed (almost all of) it.)

I’m glad the government isn’t here with a clipboard telling me what I can and can’t do with my life at every turn.

(I’m all for setting a max beyond which overtime must be paid to hourly workers (as now) and for setting reasonable caps that can’t be required by the employer to be exceeded, but if a worker wants to work long or hard, they should be able to choose that, IMO.)

Re: Hire people who give a shit

#280
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be that workaholic who worked crazy hours and had "passion" for the job. Thing is, it's not sustainable in the long run no matter how much you love it. It might be OK in your twenties. But you're not going to be doing that for four decades. You need to live a life outside work as well. Otherwise you'll be a burned out wreck with crippling RSI. For the record, I did get crippling RSI in my early thirties and…

> but it's Tuesday now, why didn't you review it in the cold light of day and fix all of these obvious defects? Did someone react like that for real after 2am Saturday work? (sounds a bit callous to me also when 2am was a bad idea)

It's extremely paraphrased and slightly exaggerated, missing some of the context (intentionally, because I don't want to break confidentiality).

It was an attempt to provide an example of why working long hours is not a good idea overall. More often than not, work done in a rush, while tired and sleep-deprived and not thinking straight, is of poor quality, and I don't think it's in our interest to lionise "heroic" performance when the end result is not acceptable. More often than not, they would have done a better job if they slept on it and picked it back up in the morning. Or, at the very least, carefully reviewed their work in the morning and fixed all the defects they introduced during the night. Ultimately, every code review needs to be held to the same high standard, and the circumstances of poor quality work should not be used as a justification for submitting or accepting bad work.

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