How to Think for Yourself • Hacker News Board

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#271

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #234

Can someone explain the constant reference to nerds in PG's essays? I feel like it's a concept straight out of a 1970s-90s low-budget movie and hasn't been accurate or relevant since...

The concept was prevalent in 1970s-90s movies because it's a core part of how people who grew up in those decades (like PG) perceive the world. I suspect that he struggles to see the world without that lens applied, the same way political partisans struggle to look at things without a red vs. blue filter; it's too foundational to who he is and what he believes.

(I don't mean that as an insult, to be clear. I have filters like that too, and I'm sure we all do.)

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#272

Post by mempko » Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

> Independent-mindedness seems to be more a matter of nature than nurture.

Paul Graham seems dead wrong on this. Here is a twin study showing the opposite.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

Also the Asch conformity experiments suggest the opposite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments

Scientific thinking is something that can be taught. Think for yourself, don't listen to Paul Graham.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#273

Post by ghufran_syed » Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

It's really hard to read this kind of discussion of paul graham's work, because I feel there is a lot of reaction to who he is rather than just the ideas being presented. I'd love to see him do a [Richard Bachman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bachman) i.e. start writing essays with no obvious connection to his actual identity and see what response it gets.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#274

Post by wpietri » Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

baron_harkonnen wrote: post #131

PG sure has been on a kick about how brilliant of an independent thinker he is in a sea of conformity. It's clear in all of his writing that he's perpetually beating around the bush about some current itch he has, I wish he would just come out and say it with out pretending to be a deep thinker: > Do you want to do the kind of work where you can only win by thinking differently from everyone else? I mean, taken outsi…

I thought you were being too harsh, and then I read the essay. Sheesh.

One of the conventions he really adopts here is binary thinking. He's created an enormous false dichotomy, and then decided he and his in-group are 100% on the correct side of it. Another convention is the commanding, voice-of-God essay that has now finally answered an important question. As if things like this ever have one answer. And as you suggest, at this point he's promoting a "nerds >> normies" ideology that may have been novel in the mid-80s, but now seems hopelessly stale to this nerd.

And I think that leads him to write what is just a poor essay on the topic. These days good a chunk of the independence in my thinking comes from things like humility, self-awareness, and empathy. Maybe at 18 the best strategy for independent thinking is to ignore others. But somebody not much younger than Graham, the biggest threat to my clarity of thought is getting high on my own bullshit. It's getting locked into ideas and beliefs that are comfortable or convenient. It's that thinking myself independent of others is the only kind of independence needed.

Of course, I'm lucky in that since I'm not nearly as successful as Graham, I don't have the same kind of incentive to justify my success in terms of me being a unique, superior genius.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#275

Post by johnnujler » Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

zug_zug wrote: post #235

johnnujler wrote: post #202

Why would you want to talk about how each individual is multi-faceted, complex, and full of contradictory beliefs when you can conveniently categorize them into conventional and independent? Ah, I know the answer: because hackers come in only one flavor: independent; and everyone else who doesn't fit the description is a conventional thinker. The level of (apparent) profundity(?) in these essays and the amount of peo…

I think if he weren't famous, PG's essays wouldn't get much reverence. But as an icon for he's a great figure. He uses his social status points to offer messages of optimism, self-improvement, hope for rebels that is socially important and feels good. The fact that we tear him down so much is testament to the regard we hold him in. I'm sure all of us who poke at his logic could just as easily shred the Pope, the Dala…

Isn’t that all the more reason why he should buckle down and write in a more responsible manner than just categorise people in absolute terms. I do not have much idea about religious leaders, but he definitely has some impact on how the SV scene operates, and with the amount of idolatry circle-jerk that happens among the YC founders, it is only justified that he be more cautious in how he treats people whether in his essays or in in real life.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#276

Post by gpsx » Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

amadeuspagel wrote: post #50

Like many of pg's essays there's an unqualified glorification of being independent. For example the suggestion that hiring conformist people is something that just happens. It seems more likely that companies more or less consciously hire such people, because a company where everyone thinks independently would be one where everyone wants to do something different, and nothing would get done, no one could agree on any…

I think a mix of conformity and independent thinking is important. Conformity is hardwired into us, and I assume that came from evolution as a means to help our survival, though I can't say I understand to what extent. I remember an off hand remark a friend made, but it says a lot: "If people see someone riding a Segway, they will go and beat him up." First, I think that is hilarious. Partly because it is true. This says a lot about our nature. Maybe this urge helps us work together? Of course, a certain amount of new thinking is needed too, or else we wouldn't get anywhere.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#277

Post by porpoise » Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

moralsupply wrote: post #263

To get negative votes in Hacker News: * Post something that is factual, but the crowd doesn't like * Post something that is logical, but the crowd doesn't like * Post a link to something reasonable, but that the crowd doesn't like Just to say that Hacker News is a highly biased community. There's very little space here to discuss anything that is not "conventional" beyond some bits of technology. When a topic touches…

I think it's still possible to go against conventional narrative on HN and get upvoted, but one needs to word one's comments with an extraordinary amount of extra care, completely stripped of sarcasm or confrontational tone, remaining objective even when under personal attack - in short, one is held to a much higher standard (in terms of quality and substance of comments) than those posting conventional opinion.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#278

Post by stfp » Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

Yes, tell me how to think for myself

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#279

Post by TrackerFF » Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #234

Can someone explain the constant reference to nerds in PG's essays? I feel like it's a concept straight out of a 1970s-90s low-budget movie and hasn't been accurate or relevant since...

I'm guessing a lot of his readers somewhat identify themselves as nerds?

And sad to say, quite a few of the nerds I know / knew have some raging superiority complexity going on. Same type of people that put down anyone that spent their HS or College years partying / social life / etc., rather than "perfecting" some worthwhile craft, like software development, writing, or whatever.

Not saying that PG is like that, at all - but those are some of the people that flock to his writing, because PG is a successful person that's constantly validating their own beliefs about themselves.

They are nerds - they made all the right decisions, and are all unique geniuses, while the normies are just stupid sheeple that waste their lives on social media or watching TV.

Re: How to Think for Yourself

#280

Post by TameAntelope » Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

PG has a high degree of believability to me when it comes to the topic of innovation, which makes it all the harder to square his assertion that a successful way to innovate is to be unaware of convention with my experience that you simply can’t even begin to innovate until you know the state of the art in a field.

I’ll have to think a lot about this, because it’s something important to me, and what he’s written here is very different from my experience and understanding, but I trust his history of accuracy, so I can’t just dismiss it.