So you've made a mistake and it's public • Hacker News Board

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#271

Post by wolfgke » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 12:34 AM UTC

cowpig wrote: post #140

textgel wrote: post #127

I think a major point missing in amongst the discussion so far, and one that's causing a lot of crosstalk is whether you should even be apologising at all. For example. Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the…

> if you're actually dealing with a genuine person or group who you've genuinely wronged then a real apology is warranted A pitfall of this mentality, at least in my experience, is that people I hurt are usually much better judges of whether I hurt them than I am. Something I learned that helped is: you can hurt someone without being wrong. "I regret that my actions had this effect on you," is a good place to start a…

> A pitfall of this mentality, at least in my experience, is that people I hurt are usually much better judges of whether I hurt them than I am.

But these people are very biased judges.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#272

Post by lopmotr » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 12:36 AM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #175

DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

I imagine there's a special extra level of problems that apply when the apology reinforces someone's stereotypical views of the apologizer based on the group they appear to be part of, whether those views are held consciously or unconsciously, which makes especially problematic. Most of those attributes or not readily obvious in an online forum, but some are based on pronoun and/or name (mainly gender and nationality…

Nevermind that group nonsense. The same phenomena occur on an individual level. People see you as fitting into some position in a social hierarchy or behavior or ability or whatever and confirm their belief whenever you do something that confirms it, while finding excuses when you do something different. "That thing he did turned out surprisingly well. But he's dumb so it must have been a fluke."

If you're only looking at racism or sexism or whatever, you're ignoring the bigger and more insidious social problems that are individual and pervade small groups and families everywhere.

When I first heard about micro-aggressions, I thought, wow, so that's what's been happing. That explains all those subtle insults, unexpected rudeness, quiet exclusions, etc. But I'm not in one of those special "marginalized" groups and being actually marginalized doesn't matter to identitarians because their politics is more important than people's welfare.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#273

Post by robaato » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 12:43 AM UTC

harlanji wrote: post #167

justin_oaks wrote: post #2

> What should I do when I see someone else is making a mistake? > When you see others making mistakes, first help them see their mistakes and deal with them (e.g. by recycling this text, or by independently offering your analysis and answers to Steps 1 and 2 above). > Remember you make mistakes too, and be tolerant of the time it may take people to accept that they have made a mistake. (But you don't need to allow th…

I’m glad others out there see it this way. I made a minor mistake, and a former employer and manager used it to make me totally unable to work again by blowing it up as much as possible. It’ll blow back on them eventually, but in the meantime I’ve been made homeless and lost all my friends. Since lawyers are involved and profit from my mistake looking worse than it was, there will never be an honest reconciliation. T…

Really tough situation - thoughts and prayers with you. Hang in there, meditate, focus on things you can control.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#274

Post by munificent » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 12:48 AM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #23

I'm not sure apologizing publicly has made anything better for any individual, especially in the current moral panic climate. Mobs don't accept apologies. Public apologies stamp official guilt on the individual and therefore serve as a license for the mob to further punish them because now they have admitted their fault and therefore are 'officially' guilty of the crime. Public apologies, therefore, are the metaphori…

> especially in the current moral panic climate.

A side effect of everyone getting 15 minutes of fame/infamy is that it means an increasing fraction of social interactions are one-shot. Often, the only time you will ever hear about someone is when they do something dumb that catches the Twitter zeitgeist. Once the moment has passed, they fade from view.

The optimal strategy for iterated prisoner's dilemma where you will interact with an opponent multiple times involves some level of fairness and give and take. The optimal strategy for single-turn prisoner's dilemma is to assume bad faith and selfishly betray your opponent.

Infer from that as you will.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#275

Post by Zancarius » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 12:51 AM UTC

lliamander wrote: post #258

nfoz wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, I was quick to realize that the mere word "sorry" has a different meaning to some people down south. In Canada I'll just say it casually to mean a polite "hope I'm not troubling you" or "sorry that happened to you", and never thought of it as immediately declaring responsibility let alone fragility. But in the US, I've been pounced on for a casual use of that word, as if I'd announced failure and that…

As an American, I've often used "sorry" in the sense you are talking about, and normally it works out fine. Maybe it's a regional thing? But there is also a difference between using "sorry" as an expression of sympathy when interacting with close relations, and public apologies.

> Maybe it's a regional thing?

I think so. I use "sorry" as a casual non-apology sometimes when I don't mean to trouble people for the same reasons as others up-thread.

It wasn't until I met my exgf when I realized that some people are perplexed by that. I said it in the context of "hope I'm not troubling you," and her immediate response was "why are you apologizing?"

Didn't help that I came back with "...I'm not?" because she insisted I was.

That said, my mother is Australian, so at least half of my upbringing is non-American, and I often don't give much thought to certain cultural discrepancies (even though I was born and raised in the US) because I have a hard enough time keeping my own straight. lol

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#276

Post by Zancarius » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 12:54 AM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #221

core-questions wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, you're missing out on the other critical half of the 'sorry'. You step on my foot. I look at you, and say "sorry", and pull my foot away. You abashedly also "sorry" and we move on. Am I apologizing? Hardly! The full sentence is, "Sorry, did you just actually step on my foot, what the hell?" and your reply is "Sorry, yes, I did do that, didn't mean to, apologies". Then the problem is solved and we move…

Are you from the pacific northwest by chance? My wife is and she will constantly apologize for things that are 100% the other person's fault. It really bugs me, especially because the other person will some times say, "oh it's ok" (as they are accepting her admission of guilt) and I usually say something like, "Honey, that wasn't your fault, you shouldn't be apologizing." On the flip side, when someone runs in to me…

> I'm really wondering if where we grew up is playing a big part here?

I don't want to repeat it here, but I mentioned this in another part of the thread.

Half of my family is outside the United States, and I often use "sorry" in a similar context. For me it's cultural rather than regional because I'm in the southwest--and now that I think about it, I've never given much thought to people giving a non-apology "sorry." It could be there's a bit of a cultural mismatch here since there's an air force base nearby, and we often have people from the Commonwealth here (UK, Canada, Australia, etc).

I'm actually not sure what sort of answer that is now that I think about it.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#277

Post by philwelch » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 12:56 AM UTC

api_or_ipa wrote: post #241

nfoz wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, I was quick to realize that the mere word "sorry" has a different meaning to some people down south. In Canada I'll just say it casually to mean a polite "hope I'm not troubling you" or "sorry that happened to you", and never thought of it as immediately declaring responsibility let alone fragility. But in the US, I've been pounced on for a casual use of that word, as if I'd announced failure and that…

As a Canadian in a happy relationship with an American, we quickly realised the difference that you've pointed out. We also realised that I had a tinge of the stereotypical Canadian "sooorry" sound, so we ran with it. If it's a situation where one of us intends to express remorse for a situation occurring, we slightly intonate towards the "o" sound, and for situations where we're accepting blame, we edge towards the…

That's adorable.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#278

Post by crazygringo » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 12:58 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #172

I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…

What an... odd situation. I'm sorry that happened.

I'm not sure I've ever quite seen that dynamic, so I'm actually really curious for details. What kinds of things did you find yourself apologizing for? And then, what were people picking on you for? And what was the relation exactly?

If you're a moderator of a group who has to make hard decisions, depending on the group, it can be a thankless job since you'll always piss off half the people no matter what.

I suppose the original post doesn't talk about what does require apology vs. what doesn't. E.g. making a necessary and correct decision that still pisses people off is usually better done with empathy for those who it bothers, but not apology.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#279

Post by auggierose » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 1:01 AM UTC

api_or_ipa wrote: post #241

nfoz wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian, I was quick to realize that the mere word "sorry" has a different meaning to some people down south. In Canada I'll just say it casually to mean a polite "hope I'm not troubling you" or "sorry that happened to you", and never thought of it as immediately declaring responsibility let alone fragility. But in the US, I've been pounced on for a casual use of that word, as if I'd announced failure and that…

As a Canadian in a happy relationship with an American, we quickly realised the difference that you've pointed out. We also realised that I had a tinge of the stereotypical Canadian "sooorry" sound, so we ran with it. If it's a situation where one of us intends to express remorse for a situation occurring, we slightly intonate towards the "o" sound, and for situations where we're accepting blame, we edge towards the…

In the UK you say sorry all the time. You usually don't mean it.

Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public

#280

Post by kbenson » Sat, Nov 14, 2020, 1:13 AM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #272

kbenson wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine there's a special extra level of problems that apply when the apology reinforces someone's stereotypical views of the apologizer based on the group they appear to be part of, whether those views are held consciously or unconsciously, which makes especially problematic. Most of those attributes or not readily obvious in an online forum, but some are based on pronoun and/or name (mainly gender and nationality…

Nevermind that group nonsense. The same phenomena occur on an individual level. People see you as fitting into some position in a social hierarchy or behavior or ability or whatever and confirm their belief whenever you do something that confirms it, while finding excuses when you do something different. "That thing he did turned out surprisingly well. But he's dumb so it must have been a fluke." If you're only looki…

> If you're only looking at racism or sexism or whatever, you're ignoring the bigger and more insidious social problems that are individual and pervade small groups and families everywhere.

Oh, I'm not, that's what I meant by an extra level of problems, not that it explains everything, but it may exacerbate it by giving more things for people to key off of that aren't based on rational measures.

What I meant is along the lines of "yes, dealing with groups is annoying because there's all sorts of weird group dynamics and people making assumptions and not re-evaluations based on new evidence, and then it gets worse for those people that have identifying characteristics that allow people to make even more baseless assumptions.