Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea • Hacker News Board

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#271

Post by unethical_ban » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:38 PM UTC

czbond wrote: post #194

Jtsummers wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Near 50% of American pay zero federal tax. The top 10% of all Americans pay 69% of all federal taxes currently. This is a point 'left out' of current discussions. Nearly 50% pay no federal income tax. It's worth making that statement precise in this case, because saying they pay no federal tax is just a lie.

Federal income tax is what matters. So yes, everyone pays some sales tax, some property tax, FICA, etc. But what matters is income tax (for individuals).

You don't defend your argument, you just state it.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#272

Post by kortilla » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #198

czbond wrote: post #127

Near 50% of American pay zero federal tax. The top 10% of all Americans pay 69% of all federal taxes currently. This is a point 'left out' of current discussions. Instead of increasing entitlements or adding yet more taxes - we lower the size of the government spending UNTIL it matches where most people pay for the services received in a more scaled manner. Source: https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-inc…

I like how you lump it up to top 10%. The top 1% of Americans pay 37% of the tax burden yet own over 60% of the wealth. They are grossly underpaying. Cutting entitlements and putting MORE of a financial burden on people who have nothing isn't going to fix the problem. AT BEST it'll result in massive social unrest and the end of the American Experiment. "I know you can't afford healthcare, and can barely afford food,…

> The top 1% of Americans pay 37% of the tax burden yet own over 60% of the wealth.

Your statement confuses wealth with income.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#273

Post by conanbatt » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

coliveira wrote: post #53

tonystubblebine wrote: post #6

As a business owner, when taxes are low, I see that as an incentive to pocket profits. But when taxes are high, I see that as an incentive to hide the profits by investing in the future. I know this isn't always the case with everyone. And especially investors have a case that higher corporate taxes reduce the value of their investments, possibly to the point of not making them. But this incentive is so blatantly obv…

This is so hidden in the debate that it is almost like a "secret". The more taxes you have on corporate income, the higher the incentive for corporations to invest in the company, so they can avoid paying taxes. This is good for the economy. On the other hand, lowering corporate taxes also generates a cascade of tax avoidance, since you have higher profits that generate the need for more complex tax avoidance schemes…

> This is good for the economy.

Some people think it is good for the economy, its not objectively true. If a company invests in itself instead of giving out dividends it's making a choice upon the shareholder, which in turn could mean the company invests in something less efficient than the shareholder could find.

> n the other hand, lowering corporate taxes also generates a cascade of tax avoidance

Unless corporate taxes are 0, and you save all of this issues plus get to fire a lot of corporate layers.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#274

Post by czbond » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #242

czbond wrote: post #127

Near 50% of American pay zero federal tax. The top 10% of all Americans pay 69% of all federal taxes currently. This is a point 'left out' of current discussions. Instead of increasing entitlements or adding yet more taxes - we lower the size of the government spending UNTIL it matches where most people pay for the services received in a more scaled manner. Source: https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-inc…

> Near 50% of American pay zero federal tax. I was looking for the lucky duckies argument to rear its head. The Intercept has an article which does a great job of eviscerating it[1] > ...when you take all U.S. taxes into account — federal income taxes, federal payroll taxes, federal corporate taxes, the federal estate tax, federal excise taxes, and the plethora of state and local taxes — the U.S. tax system is just m…

I was referencing only federal income, which I clarified a bit. Thank you for doing the work of providing those break downs.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#275

Post by golergka » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

maxharris wrote: post #86

Wealth taxes are a bad idea because they target everyone with wealth, regardless of the actual views they hold, regardless of the degree to which they have personally contributed to the collapse we are facing. The real inequality we have today is being perpetuated by outdated regulations, primarily from the 1930s. It's also being perpetuated by people that invest in Warren Buffet-style "value" stocks, which extract a…

> regardless of the actual views they hold

Are you really suggesting that taxing someone based on their views is a good idea.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#276

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

jquery wrote: post #188

munk-a wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty clear that corporate re-investment going up is good for the economy, perhaps looking at the equivalent lengths countries go to draw excess investment money from the international market in is a decent example - or maybe the WPA in the US where the government artificially injected money into employment to restart the economy.

You’re (edit: sorry, GP was) espousing the broken windows theory, though. Corporations already have a natural incentive to re-invest in themselves when it’s a profitable decision to do so.

In theory sure, but there are many many counter-examples. Corporate management rarely makes decisions that are against their interests.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#277

Post by unethical_ban » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

czbond wrote: post #228

tw04 wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how you lump it up to top 10%. The top 1% of Americans pay 37% of the tax burden yet own over 60% of the wealth. They are grossly underpaying. Cutting entitlements and putting MORE of a financial burden on people who have nothing isn't going to fix the problem. AT BEST it'll result in massive social unrest and the end of the American Experiment. "I know you can't afford healthcare, and can barely afford food,…

A person is a person, fair and square to be treated equal - until we can extract more from ones pocketbook.

A person is treated equally. If a person is poor, they get taxed little. If that same person becomes rich, they get taxed more.

Money isn't a protected class. Why do you act like it is?

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#278

Post by pingpongchef » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

tstrimple wrote: post #195

BitwiseFool wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the person you responded to but this kind of comment really bugs me. Why assume someone didn't form their own opinion?

No one "forms their own opinion" in a vacuum. Your beliefs and opinions are influenced in a multitude of ways by your environment including the media you consume. Asking how the biases you have were formed is something everyone should be asking of themselves, and certainly doesn't seem like an inappropriate question.

Problem is that it's a subtle accusation of speaking in bad faith or an accusation of lacking agency. In order to have respect for the other person, you can't start from either of those positions.

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#279

Post by question000 » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:39 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #34

tonystubblebine wrote: post #6

As a business owner, when taxes are low, I see that as an incentive to pocket profits. But when taxes are high, I see that as an incentive to hide the profits by investing in the future. I know this isn't always the case with everyone. And especially investors have a case that higher corporate taxes reduce the value of their investments, possibly to the point of not making them. But this incentive is so blatantly obv…

Strange. Business owner friends of mine have taken the opposite approach over the years. Taxes low? Start up something new, get it going. Taxes go up again? Sell it off (if they haven't already) and go back to early retirement doing whatever. Maybe it is largely the type of business that behavior changes. Their last venture was starting up an aquaponics farm in a borderline urban / suburban area, though I haven't kep…

Yeah citation needed, other then tariffs taxes have only gone down in the past 30 years...

Re: Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes Are a Bad Idea

#280

Post by TheDong » Thu, Oct 22, 2020, 6:40 PM UTC

bdangubic wrote: post #216

TheDong wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at jeff bezos for example. He sells over a billion dollars worth of amazon stock each year [0] (those numbers have increased slightly since then actually). Fine, he pays some of that to the government, and maybe sells slightly more. I don't see the problem. If, in fact, your wealth only comes from ownership in a company and you have no other source of wealth, then yes you would be encourages to sell your s…

Why should I be forced to sell shares of my company when no other individual that owns shares of whatever other companies is being forced to sell?! As you said, Bezos sells billion dollars worth of AMZN and pays taxes on that just as you and I would when we do. I am not sure I follow why we are trying to tax owning of shares of companies?! If you buy 100,000 shares of AMZN today, do you hope that IRS will come knocki…

> If you buy 100,000 shares of AMZN today, do you hope that IRS will come knocking on your door to take 1,000 or whatever number it is each year?

Yes, I would expect that if I had 100k shares of amzn (300 million dollars of net worth), and we implemented a wealth tax, the IRS would tell me "You have to pay us $300k or so" each year on that wealth. If that means I sell some stock, then sure. That means, btw, if I live 60 more years and gain zero more dollars of wealth, I still have 280 million dollars left of my original 300 mil. I still have plenty of shares left.

You clearly don't understand the point of a wealth tax or how the rate rises progressively with wealth it is if you don't understand why we'd be taxing ownership of wealth, and why this wouldn't negatively impact most people.

> If that is the case no one would ever buy any shares of any company...

I currently don't have over 50M of net worth. A wealth tax would not impact me, so I'd still buy stock just as I do now, with no difference. If my stocks did so well that I had millions of dollars, I'd now be able to pay a wealth tax, and have on problem with that. I'd also keep buying stocks if they got me from a net worth of almost nothing to $50M, and all I had to do was pay a small percentage each year along the way.