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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#271

Post by PeterStuer »

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Many reasons:

- The typical 'pains' felt in the lopsided power relation between employer and employee were and often still are cushioned by the adequate compensation in a market where the sought after skills were in short supply

- Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes.

- Tech culture is one that has always idolized 'passion', so objecting to bad working conditions and habits was not just seen as rocking the boat, but a character flaw of those that lacked passion.

- Tech workers very often see their employee status as temporary, just putting some bread on the table while they will create their own SaaS business 'real soon now' and be on the other side of the relation

- Tech has a habit of inducing very young workers, and churning through them. This is no just HR strategy but group enforced by incorporating youth (and single/ non-family) oriented spaces symbolically in the workplace (Foosball tables, slides ...)

Note that on the Employer side of the spectrum tech companies have no qualms about joining their collective bargaining and lobbying associations

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#272

Post by username90 »

faitswulff wrote: post #266
username90 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People could organize a European style union for software engineers right now in USA if they wanted, but they aren't doing it. Instead they are still pushing for US style unions like they did at Kickstarter. The only reason I can think of why they are doing this is that they want the extra power that comes with US style unions instead of the more worker friendly EU style unions.

What is the primary difference between EU and US style unions?

US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without properly labeling them.

EU unions are bigger and more general but aren't allowed to force workers to join, ie EU is a "right to work" area. This avoids most of the problems with US style unions and also gives workers more political power since EU style unions are bigger and can therefore more easily influence national politics.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#273

Post by 627467 »

Others have pointed out that tech workers are much more unionized elsewhere (other than US).

There are probably multiple factors as to why there are few unions in US (ie. Comp in US is insanely high, tons of competition for workers, etc).

But I'd argued that the main reason is: insane growth of US tech sector in past decades as compared to elsewhere in the world. This enables both higher comparative wages and competition for labour.

Also consider that almost anyone can start a tech business (workers are the capital resources of a tech outfit - not machinery) leading to more dynamic labour market.

But, I'm not sure this will continue to be true after backlash we are seeing against USA tech sector. Maybe that's why the conversation around unions is starting now.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#275

Post by sonicggg »

bhoessen wrote: post #221
missedthecue wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do tech unions in other countries not produce the same pay level found in the US?

Because we don't have the same costs as in the US (university, healthcare, housing, ...). For instance, the cost to attend courses in a good university in Belgium is at most 835 euro/year [0]. (This does not include textbooks) In the EU, the market is much more fragmented because of the many languages we speak. [0] https://uclouvain.be/en/study/inscriptions/tuition-fees.html

Don't think this assumption that "the employer will pay according to the cost of living" is true at all. Non-tech worked in Silicon Valley are not getting the same kind of party, for example.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#276

Post by M2Ys4U »

mattlondon wrote: post #252

For UK readers: consider joining the 100-year-old Prospect union https://prospect.org.uk/about/who-are-prospect/ > more than 145,000 members who work as scientists, engineers, tech experts and in other specialist roles. I see it simply as something of an "insurance policy" in case bad stuff happens - I feel this is especially useful to have this as backup as Brexit and the fall-out from COVID are on the horizon...

Yes, I'm a member of Prospect and I'm quite happy. I've never been involved with a dispute, but I know the union and my employer are in regular contact from the very top of the org down to my department's head.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#277

Post by skitout »

username90 wrote: post #272
faitswulff wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the primary difference between EU and US style unions?

US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without prop…

In my understanding unions that can "forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit" are exceptions not the rules in 2020 USA (and clearly not what the article was talking about).

Perhaps am I ill informed (never been in USA, and my friend living there are not in unions), could you give us some sources saying that what you say is the main form of union in USA today ?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#278

Post by skitout »

username90 wrote: post #274
082349872349872 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Board seats?

That is only in Germany and not typical for EU.

And Austria, Croatia, Denmark, Finland, France, Hungary, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia and Sweden (but with less seats than Germany)

https://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Rela...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#279

Post by UncleMeat »

skybrian wrote: post #162
doggosphere wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Unions are owned/compromised of workers. Workers vote on issues that affect them. Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Absolutely true, but if demand wasn't so high and supply wasn't so short, what happens to worker leverage and t…

As you might have noticed, voting is no guarantee that good leaders are elected, nor does it necessarily prevent corruption. "We the people" is a founding myth, and it's our myth, but it's still a political myth similar to the divine right of kings, a way of justifying the rule of the many by the few. The leaders are not the masses, no matter what anyone pretends. (I'm not saying I have a better idea, but let's not b…

Of course not. But democracy is better than no control. A union can fight against things like unpaid oncall or crunch or other abusive practices.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#280

Post by 627467 »

skitout wrote: post #269
627467 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several have mentioned that contemporary tech workers (mostly?) are privileged and have leverage in negotiations that allows them to individually gain what others in other industry can only get through unions. Part of that leverage comes from having lots of options. And why is there lots of options? Because "anyone" can start a tech company. The main mean of production of a tech outfit is the tech workers themselves.…

If you are super handsome, rich, smart and young, it is easier for you than most people to find another girlfriend / boyfriend... but you still want to have influence of the big decision inside your couple, you don't want to be abused...

Following that metaphor: the way I see US tech sector is akin to people in their twenties, prioritizing individual experiences and growth and postponing settling with anyone for now.

Plus: who do you unionse with in a couple? If the point is to avoid abuse from the other part?

If I want to have big say in an organization I become a shareholder (ie. Buy the ring) which, for many tech workers that is true (through stock grants/options).

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