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How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

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Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Single stream recycling is a scam. It started recently. But it is making its way everywhere because it eases collection systems on municipalities. Few people realize that when you mix paper and beverage containers, you get non-recyclable paper and difficult to recycle beverage containers. Further shredded paper cannot be recycled in single stream systems. It wreaks havoc on the system.

AIUI, bottles and cans are sorted easily from paper. Also as the glass/steel/aluminium is going in a furnace some contamination is fine. Contamination the other way is sorted by float-beds; and paper gets shredded and washed anyway as part of the recycling process. Could you expand on what you think the problem is here?

My understanding was that paper exposed to liquids (other than water) and oils are no longer recyclable.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#272
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you live and how garbage disposal works where you live, but in general I would urge people not to do this. Proper garbage can bags are important because they don't spill out easily. This makes the job of the garbage disposal people much easier. Imagine having someone overworked and underpaid, working on autopilot and at fast pace, and suddenly your trash spills out. You will ruin that person's day.

Are there really still places In the US where people actually have to physically manhandle garbage into a truck?!

Boston. New York. San Francisco (inner).

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#273

The whole recycling scam makes me upset. For decades the message was to recycle for the environment. But it was all just shipped to China and then dumped into the oceans. It actually would've been better if it went to landfills, at least then it's safely contained. Another lie was that we're running out of landfill space, there's so much land out there. Like most environmental issues, the focus should've been on prod…

Thinking about this more, wasn't there a time, maybe late 90s early 2000s when the message was that plastic is more environmental than paper? Something like at the supermarket checkout you should pick plastic over paper bags to save rain forest trees? Is my memory wrong or was this a widespread message at the time?

I remember that also. Save the trees, use plastic. But I think it was earlier than the late 90s.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#274
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you live and how garbage disposal works where you live, but in general I would urge people not to do this. Proper garbage can bags are important because they don't spill out easily. This makes the job of the garbage disposal people much easier. Imagine having someone overworked and underpaid, working on autopilot and at fast pace, and suddenly your trash spills out. You will ruin that person's day.

Are there really still places In the US where people actually have to physically manhandle garbage into a truck?!

Yup. Many rural areas like ours have weekly garbage collection. It's an ancient truck, with the same 3 guys ever since I moved here nearly 10 years ago. They hand toss every single bag. And when the truck breaks down they collect the trash in a pickup truck and handle it twice, once loading it and once unloading it.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Producing plastic generates 5x the co2 contained in it.

How does paper compare?

I’d like to see some figures, but my understanding is that while paper production is highly polluting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_liquor) and consumes power in heating, transport and the like, plastic production is still worse on a carbon basis. But it’s @ thought calculation: for example you can truckload of plastic bags for less than it costs to transport a truckload of paper bags (and you can fit more plastic bags in said truck).

There are other externalities, such as the dangerous properties of loose used plastic bags as well.

My comment about sequestering carbon via burying toys was a joke.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#276
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I remember as well. I remember my mother using her own rope net grocery bags as an alternative to the paper ones. I remember in school we switched from single-portion paper milk cartons to square bags of milk that you punctured with a plastic straw. This was sold to us along with a muppet skit explaining how to use the milk bags (the muppets rated it "one thumb up and one thumb down, to cover the straw h…

> what happens to the 40 odd plastic bags I've accumulated? We always used them as garbage can liners. Now that stores no longer have plastic bags we have to buy plastic bags. So instead of reusing the plastic bags we brought our groceries home in, we are buying brand new plastic bags instead. The same number of plastic bags are entering the landfill. The only difference is that now we have to pay for them.

> The only difference is that now we have to pay for them.

Nitpick: you always had to pay for them, the cost was built in to the purchase price.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose the truly religious environmentalists can buy indulgences in the form of carbon credits. Airlines offer them so the people guilty about travel can pay the owner of a forest to do nothing. Not perfect because you still make carbon, but at least you don’t have to pilgrimage in a sailboat like Greta Thunberg.

If carbon credits are implemented without massive fraud, I don't think it's fair to call them indulgences. If enough people bought carbon credits under a working system it would be a flood of money toward restricting carbon release and recapturing carbon.

Carbon credits are issued to companies in the industry based on a certain amount they are allowed to pollute. This is the cap, the credits are the trade, in "cap-and-trade". However, all that pollution still gets polluted in the end, the only thing that changes is who does it, and who pays. Other players can enter the market and claim to absorb carbon, but very often these people are just monetizing ecosystem services that were already happening before they showed up.

If the cost of the credit was of the same value as removing the pollution, sure. This doesn't happen, though. Like sin, the credit doesn't undo the pollution, it just forgives it. The world still gets more polluted either way.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were some life-cycle analyses done which created quite a stir arguing that plastic was better when the full life-cycle was considered. I can't find the original paper but here's a summary [1] of studies with sources (from a bag website) 1: http://www.allaboutbags.ca/papervplasticstudies.html .

Not sure if a site compiled by the Canadian Plastics Industry Association is a great source here. Even though it cites sources, there's probbaly some strong selection bias going on here.

I missed it was from a plastics association. But my point about the life-cycle analysis work is still valid - I studied this a little in grad-school and the paper v plastic bag trade-off was frequently discussed because of the surprising results.

(Life-cycle analysis does have huge assumptions involving usage, so it's not an exact science)

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#279
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We really don't have much hope in regulating that. Western countries can stop sending plastic waste to Asian countries, that would be a start.

Unless that is the waste they are dumping into the oceans, why would that matter?

tl;dr: first & last sentences

Wealth originates in natural resources.

Here you've got bureaucracy, natural resources, value-added product, surplus, scrap, waste, storage, shipping, and business-as-usual being the primary elements interacting overall.

It isn't profitable to send a shipload to a place where it isn't worth more money when it gets there. Price matters.

Propylene gas is one of the fundamentally simplest hydrocarbon monomers, second only to ethylene gas in simplicity.

Used as raw material to produce polypropylene and polyethylene plastics respectively.

Very similar in volatility, flammability, and liquefication properties to propane, propylene can be handled using the same familiar tanks used by consumers for cooking and heating.

And the same traditional LPG vessels or the modern refrigerated lower-pressure types.

We're in a crisis but current prices still represent a somewhat functional market.

Lets put them on the same basis in US dollars and look at the math.

LPG can be considered a crude natural resource and it's quoted in liters across a broad spectrum of prices from 0.07 to 1.16 USD worldwide: -interestingly this data source does not include Mexico or the US, however North America is represented by Canada

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/lpg_prices/

Propane is refined from LPG, quoted per gallon at 0.46 USD. So that's about 0.12 USD per liter for comparison to the LPG spectrum:

https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=propane

Propylene is produced using propane as the raw material, quoted per metric tonne at about 870 USD, except on the US Gulf Coast where delivery without shipping is only about 20 USD per tonne. So that's about 0.53 USD per liter elsewhere for comparison to the LPG spectrum:

https://www.fibre2fashion.com/market-intelligence/textile-ma...

Quite a bit of certain value added here in the step from propane to propylene but some people are still paying more for hydrocarbons to burn than others are paying for raw monomers for polymerization into plastic.

And they all come in the same vessels when available.

Made from the propylene monomer as raw material, solid plastic bulk polypropylene pellets on the same basis at 1170 USD per tonne can be seen to provide notable multiples of value added on the US Gulf Coast. For the pellets that's a price about 0.72+ USD per liter of equivalent propylene monomer (ideally polymerized) to compare to LPG:

https://www.fibre2fashion.com/market-intelligence/textile-ma...

Note that both charts from the last data source appear to have European prices quoted in Euros on an otherwise US dollar chart, so things are even more expensive over there than it looks.

And the virgin polypropylene or polyethylene pellets might be under consideration to be shipped by the same solid-cargo vessels in competition with more diffucult-to-handle waste plastic.

Actually if an overseas factory uses a liter equivalent of cheap plastic pellets to make consumable items for return export, their value added can be a bigger multiple than any of the preceeding members of the value-added chain. Like a few dollars rather than these sub-dollar amounts.

Even within the same oil company, different degrees of environmental protection can be accomplished by different groups.

Different incentives apply to different groups of bonus-seekers, the exploration, production, refining, petrochemicals, and polymers each have their own not-fully-aligned efforts.

Sometimes bonuses can only be had by the most agressive growth operators at all costs, externalized or not.

Then there's this from 2013: HN link to: One of the largest polypropylene production facilities opens in Siberia [2013] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24458335

And since that's not enough for consumers, now there's this from Thursday: HN link to: Launch of New World Class Polypropylene Production Line in La Porte, Texas https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24458348

Remember, some businesspeople will never be satisfied unless every dollar is greedily extracted at each possible point in a chain, often preferring it to be done to someone else's extreme disadvantage if possible.

To be financially sustainable;

It takes a lot of surplus to save from destruction, distribute, deploy, repair and/or reuse.

It takes a whole lot more scrap to recover the valuable components from.

You can only imagine how much tonnage it would take once there are no more financially valuable components.

Now both the surplus & scrap have always been under pressure from virgin raw materials and manufacturing to begin with, and so surplus & scrap are still often included with and regarded as _waste_. Some people hate anything old anyway. Actually makes the waste seem to be more valuable if it's not just plain plastic too.

There's not supposed to be any level of imagination that can conceive of a scale so vast that handling plain plastic waste would be financially feasible.

So the waste doesn't have a chance, there's fundamentally not a promising financial market that can develop around a liability.

Unless maybe you promise to do something but you don't actually do it.

The only market can be among those willing to pay to discharge a liability.

A big city, company, or community can easily attach no remaining value to more dumpster loads of stuff the more wasteful and consumer-oriented the society.

It can't be economically handled, stored or shipped, and the more of these efforts that are incurred they increase the depth of the liability, so the incentive can arise to make it the sooner the discharge the better.

When the only remaining real value is as scrap for recycling or fuel for energy recovery, but both are uneconomical compared to virgin material, the final incentive falls to incidental accumulators whose economics are not quite prohibitive, but on too small a scale to make a major impact, or on a too-imaginative scale of accumulation which often fails to have a positive outcome.

Surplus, scrap, and waste operators have always had their warehouses, scrapyards, and dumps under pressure to discharge at the same average rate as accumulation. Lots of them are always _almost_ full.

Seems to me once an overseas business like this is established, there will be times when it will make economic sense for someone to discharge a low-value cargo into the ocean even if they were to continue the voyage all the way to the intended recycling port afterward. If the receiving dump was still anticipated to be full upon the vessel's ETA, the cargo could not be accepted anyway, and a procedure could be developed to handle it with creative paperwork, even routinely without any changes to established office systems. So everyone continues to make money because they're being paid to get rid of the waste, not because someone actually thinks they can add value to the waste if delivered. Maybe extract a little more value, but not add anything, and further value removal can be a costly maybe still leaving most of the bulk left over anyway, and there may be _greener_ pastures.

When there's no market to rescue a marginal asset which quickly turns into a vast liability during a voyage, there can be no rescue to hold out for.

Fundamentally a shipload of waste is worth less than a shipload of crude oil except for a few days each century wben crude goes below zero. The rest of the time crude oil is higher, sometimes fluctuating wildly while still providing a cheaper source of virgin plastic than recycled plastic can compete with. Waste plastic never rises significantly above zero, and is always on the decline.

There could be incentive to ocean dump just because the asset is so marginal, to prevent further cost of handling and storage, and eliminate risk of turning into a liability through time. Actually voyaging nowhere near an overseas port. Covering this with paperwork could be the most profitable business niche in the declining-value chain. Mountains of garbage might have more slippery slopes than you think, and people end up under the table. Returning an unburnt fraction of the vast produced resource to the earth offshore to where much of it originated, but not to the subsurface. In a value-extracted-while-declining way comparable to just spilling the oil intentionally.

Similar to the way at the other end a pipeline thief might make more money per barrel than the oil company would from the oil they are stealing as it comes from the earth.

I don't know if anyone seriously insures these waste cargoes against losses to begin with.

>Here you've got bureaucracy, natural resources, value-added product, surplus, scrap, waste, storage, shipping, and business-as-usual being the primary elements interacting overall.

Same elements as the Beirut explosion where the impact may or may not be as large on the environment as many shiploads of waste plastic, but after a period of complacency both raise their ugly head in their own way. In Beirut that was just one shipment and the human failures had an instantaneously undeniable effect after the delay.

Shipments which are of marginal value don't have a mainstream re-entry point because they compete with shipments having full value.

It wouldn't be so bad without all the dishonesty & greed.

Re: How Big Oil Misled the Public into Believing Plastic Would Be Recycled

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If carbon credits are implemented without massive fraud, I don't think it's fair to call them indulgences. If enough people bought carbon credits under a working system it would be a flood of money toward restricting carbon release and recapturing carbon.

Carbon credits are issued to companies in the industry based on a certain amount they are allowed to pollute. This is the cap, the credits are the trade, in "cap-and-trade". However, all that pollution still gets polluted in the end, the only thing that changes is who does it, and who pays. Other players can enter the market and claim to absorb carbon, but very often these people are just monetizing ecosystem service…

> Carbon credits are issued to companies in the industry based on a certain amount they are allowed to pollute. This is the cap, the credits are the trade, in "cap-and-trade". However, all that pollution still gets polluted in the end, the only thing that changes is who does it, and who pays.

The baseline is that all the credits are being bought by industrial polluters. If you personally buy a credit, industry has to pollute less. If you buy 1.5 credits for every credit-worth of extra pollution you cause, the pollution in the world is reduced. In theory.

> The world still gets more polluted either way.

The more credits people buy and sit on, the less pollution there can be. At first this is all low hanging fruit, but eventually the price gets so high that it's cheaper for industries to pay for carbon capture than to pay for credits. If enough are bought, and the price of credits goes high enough, total regulated pollution drops to zero or even goes under zero.

That's not an indulgence if you can minimize the loopholes.

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