Live data from Hacker News

ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

zsa.io

271–280 of 282 posts

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#271
post #17

I've been getting deep into the home office ergonomics hole now that I'll be working from home indefinitely. There's a real danger here - I generally pride myself as someone who is conscientious of consumerist tendencies, but it's become clear that my drive for better ergonomics is no longer about the actual facilitation of work or avoidance of injury. I have spent more time researching ergonomic setups than could ev…

overly hyperbolic. though there's something good to be said about abstaining from _needless_ things, what you need is a matter of taste and personal experience.

there's more to keyboards. why do i have a nice one? to enjoy the typing experience - feedback + sound + appearance.

nothing wrong with nice things that make your life better. i spend an obscene amount of time with a keyboard. i want the experience to be as perfected as possible.

specific to this keyboard: i want an ergo layout, but would not buy this keyboard unless there was a switch-less and cap-less option - 365 (plus fees + taxes + shipping/whatever) is a lot to pay and then also buy switches and keycaps

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#272
a serious problem with these exotic keyboards is, you need two. They're too big to take with you to work.

I would not have coped well if not for Covid-19. When I am at the office im just there for meetings, because getting things done now on a normal keyboard is frustrating.

But really, my shoulder pain is so much less, it's ultimately relaxed being able to work both arms on shoulder width. Ban the mouse as well, and no more arm-swinging.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#273
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you add more details about the problems you had with the Kyria thumb positioning? Too much usage of the inward thumb keys? Angles?

Its the angle of the thumb keys, which is the restriction of printing all the keys for one hand on one board. I like the keyboard linked here because the thumb keys are at a different angle. I really like the kyria though because of the aggressive staggering. It resolved a lot of issues I got because my middle finger is so much longer than my index finger. But in order to take advantage of the stagger, I have to keep…

I see. Yeah, sounds like a one of the Dactyl Manuform's is in your future. :-) Given the parametric nature, it seems like you be able to tune it to your specifics.

For me, on the existing flat thumb ergos, hitting the thumb buttons with the side of the thumb actually feels normal to me in terms of thumb & wrist motion. The primary issue is the angles and arc of the splaying of the thumb to hit the keys without having to contort my thumbs any. This is my biggest issue with the Kinesis Advantage and ErgoDox.

The second biggest factor is that the tall Cherry style switches and keycaps requires a lot of travel distance for activation. One the more recent ergo boards, I've switched to lower profile switches and that makes a non-trivial improvement as well. My upcoming build is with the choc minis + low profile keycaps but with heavier springs so they feel more like the last generation of the 17" MBP keyboard (as opposed the crap that's Apple's done with their recent keys).

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#274
post #123

Unfortunatley, I believe it's a mistake to move away from the 1.5u outer column used by the ErgoDox, since the pinky is a less accurate finger and benefits from the extra key width. There isn't anything this does that the ErgoDox-EZ doesn't do, besides the adjustable thumb cluster and apparent build quality. I wouldn't call this a next-generation ergonomic keyboard unless it also had integrated pointing device option…

My take after building my own fully-custom board is that the best ergonomics is had by ditching the outer column entirely to completely remove pinky reaching. The thumb clusters need to be bigger and closer to the alphas so they're more powerful and more easily reached. My board: https://flic.kr/p/LJdbeC

You are a legend, sir! I recall this being posted to reddit years back. I upvoted it then, and do so again now.

I started out with an Atreus42 in 2016 and really loved it, so I totally get that outer columns are superfluous in most circumstances. The same could be said about most extra features on this ZSA Moonlander board overall, although I think there's some utility in being able to leverage the non-essential keys when it's convenient, especially when it costs that much. Say for example one wants to use it for gaming - most games expect there to be an outer column.

(Shameless plug) Here's my keymap. It doesn't require outer columns, and needs just 34 keys: https://github.com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/sb4dv/planc...

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#275
post #241
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Dactyl is a beautiful piece of design and engineering, I've been thinking about getting one. What variation of Dactyl Manuform are you using, i.e. 4x6, 5x6?

I'm using the 5x6 layout. For me it seems like the fewest amount of keys (64) I can drop to without having to use layers. I pretty much only use layers for the function keys.

I just ordered a 5x6. I came to a similar conclusion. The 4x6 looks really cool, but I felt I was already pushing it in terms of the amount of change I was talking on, i.e. going from rectangle to a split, going from 75% layout to ~60%, etc. I may try out a smaller model if I really love the Dactyl and want to experiment more with layers.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#276
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the customizability of the Advantage2 compare to the Ergodox EZ?

Nowhere close. There are DIY mods that people have done to be able to run e.q., QMK as well as make them bluetooth. My impression is that people who really want the concave keywells are building variations of the Dactyl Manuform.

Thanks for the info! I'll take a closer look at the Dactyl, although at first glance it doesn't look very stable.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#277
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere close. There are DIY mods that people have done to be able to run e.q., QMK as well as make them bluetooth. My impression is that people who really want the concave keywells are building variations of the Dactyl Manuform.

Thanks for the info! I'll take a closer look at the Dactyl, although at first glance it doesn't look very stable.

Skip to original Dactyl and look at the configurability/customizability of the Dactyl Manuforms.

Personally, after using the Kinesis Advantage for many years, I'm going a different direction... fewer keys, lower profile, etc. E.g., Corne, Kyria, Ferris.

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of judging how people spend money on the internet? Are you saying you are above reproach in your spending in every facet of life? You don't buy anything because you just enjoy it, or because it strikes your personal fancy? If so, good for you, but don't say things like "I don't mean any offense" and follow that up immediately with "I find it insane that..." The second statement is clearly intended to…

Fair comment! English is not my first language, and I absolutely didn't want to offend. At least in my headI still think it's nothing close to " I hate you for buying this" what I wanted was " I don't understand why this thing sells. "

People will gladly spend hundreds of dollars on "fancy plates" (aka china) that sit on display in shelves. Thousands or tens of thousands of dollars could be paid for paint on canvas, just because the paint arrangement is unique, or the person that did the painting is well known. People pay 5 dollars for a cup of coffee at starbucks.

I think it's just important to realize that spending isn't always a strictly rational process. That said, there are definitely significant pieces of engineering that go into a keyboard. Here, the keyboard is fully programmable and you can flash the firmware. For some people's workflows, this might be very important. No keyboard in your price range will allow that. This keyboard is equipped with a low-power ARM cortex, which means it can handle additional logic a typical keyboard can't. You can use "layers" and swap between them at a hardware instead of a software level. This means you can take your keybindings with you as opposed to needing to change the OS settings when you switch computers while using the same keyboard. If you have actual wrist issues due to an injury, frankly I would pay even more money than this to ensure that I can type pain-free or that the symptoms don't deteriorate. As someone that's worked in hardware, I can say first-hand that the plastic injection molds are extremely expensive for products not sold at a massive scale.

I could go on. I'm not a "keyboard collector" or anything, but I do have a keyboard that cost me over 100 dollars, and having used it for eight years now, I consider the price entirely reasonable given the utility its afforded me, and the longevity. Not to mention that I can replace keycaps if needed, I can replace the cord, I can reprogram it as my needs change, etc.

I can understand if English isn't your first language, that's not a problem. Tone-wise, I think if you genuinely are curious about something, just make that clear. Otherwise, the question comes off as a rhetorical one, where you're "asking" in the sense of "why anyone would be so stupid as to spend this much money is beyond me."

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#279
post #90
post #17

I've been getting deep into the home office ergonomics hole now that I'll be working from home indefinitely. There's a real danger here - I generally pride myself as someone who is conscientious of consumerist tendencies, but it's become clear that my drive for better ergonomics is no longer about the actual facilitation of work or avoidance of injury. I have spent more time researching ergonomic setups than could ev…

The best keyboard I can think of is one that tells me to get my butt out of the chair and go for a walk every two hours.

Why not both? :-)

https://www.workwhilewalking.com/do-treadmill-desks-actually...

Re: ZSA Moonlander: A next-generation ergonomic keyboard

#280
post #248
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love mechanical keyboards. My favorite switch is ALPS. But IMHO, the most ergonomic switches are low-travel ones. They increase my typing speed, reduce latency and make long sessions effortless. Luckily, low-travel versions of many good quality keyboard switches are being produced and developed more often now to cater the gaming market. For a simple, readily available option, I find the Apple Magic Keyboard more th…

For a low-travel and ergonomic keyboard, check out the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic. It's wireless and has a standard layout which doesn't require any learning, including a real row of function-keys, full size arrow-block and pg-up/down. And it just cost 1/4 of the Moonlander. No per-key dedicated backlight, no programmable ARM Cortex or any other thrills, it's just a simple, comfortable, plug in and start using keyboa…

They do offer a version with OEM/business packaging and no mouse.
Post reply on HN