Live data from Hacker News

Georgism

en.wikipedia.org

271–280 of 338 posts

Re: Georgism

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a theorem (called the "Henry George Theorem", but ironically discovered by Joseph Stiglitz in 1977) [1] that an LVT in the presence of democratic government results in an optimal tax rate and allocation of public/private benefits, and that an LVT can solely fund government. The idea behind the theorem is that all of these public benefits - open space, parks, museums and cultural attractions, mass transit, tr…

It sounds like the argument is that voters are rational and therefore must vote for the correct level of LVT. Doesn’t the evidence show that the ideal LVT rate is zero, since that’s what they have in fact enacted?

Individual voters don't have to be rational as long as their errors cancel out. This is the "wisdom of crowds" / "central limit theorem" argument: statistically, you can get a very good approximation of the true value out of very unreliable individual measurements as long as you have a large number of independent such measurements.

Whether this theorem is robust against systematic cognitive biases is another matter. I don't know the answer to that, but it seems like voters are more likely to eg. vote for a tax that falls on someone else but gets passed along to them as higher prices, which would be an argument against an LVT ever being enacted.

Also, elsewhere in these comments are good arguments why an LVT is very difficult to "bolt onto" and enact a government once it's already been formed, which may be why we don't have one. That's simple path-dependence: Georgism didn't exist when most modern industrial nations were first formed, therefore it can't exist now.

Re: Georgism

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that changes the fact that there is no inherent value to land (improved or unimproved). Different people value the same piece of land (or any good) differently. This is just reality, regardless of whether someone is appointed to imagine a price for the purposes of taxation.

You may as well say that nothing has inherent value. The concept of "inherent value" is a bit broken, as the same thing that gives land value (somebody else wants it) is exactly what gives anything else value (somebody else will give you something for it). Valuations in currency are an abstraction for how we deal with this really tricky and intractable problem. But like all abstractions, it's leaky. A $100 bill has n…

Yes, nothing has inherent value. Different humans value things differently under different conditions. For example, I may be willing to trade a lot for oranges if no other food is available. But if lots of other food is available, I wouldn’t be willing to trade anything. Some people don’t like oranges and wouldn’t trade anything unless they were starving. This is why prices are always changing in a market. Prices only reveal two individual’s preferences at the time of a particular trade.

So you see, there is no inherent value or price to oranges or water or land, or anything. This is a fundamental misunderstanding that Georgists have about the nature of prices and the world.

The fact that someone can be appointed to declare an imagined inherent price to water or land or whatever doesn’t change it. Yes, the government does appoint people to do this and it is ridiculous. My house isn’t worth what the government says it is, it’s worth what I’m willing to trade for it.

Re: Georgism

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the articles providing feedback to georgist ideas - I've read some of these but some are new to me. The authors seem not to understand the topic unfortunately and have to use long prose as they are trying to wrap their head around it. The core problem and idea for solution is actually quite simple. Let me condense the topic into a tweet or two. --- Problem: You have a naturally occuring resource which is s…

> You have a naturally occuring resource which is scarce and which nobody created. … Georgist simply say you can use an auction granting you possession for some amount of time … First problem: This is a recurring process but the land is only "unimproved" at the time of the first auction. At which point no one was interested in the land, there being nothing and noone there, so the auction price is effectively zero. Af…

To your first problem: In the simple agricultural example, clearing the land has a reasonably predictable cost, whether it is taking down centuries-old trees and removing stumps and roots, or removing the boulders, or removing the spring harvest of rocks that surface due to winter freezes and placing them onto walls. Often the soil must be drained, and fenced, and possibly irrigated. But not all the land will be improved at once; uncleared land will be close to cleared, fenced, drained land, and obviously a tenant or buyer will pay more for partially improved farmland than for unimproved.

To your second problem: Where in the US is there unowned land? The settlers went west across thousands of miles of unoccupied land. Why didn't they stop and settle? It was owned. Early and ultimate sprawl. Others had pre-empted it for the benefit of their heirs. Think how the development of the US would have been had development proceeded west in some orderly way.

To your third problem: the land is forever. If well taken care of, it will remain fertile. But its fertility may not be important for all that long, depending on its location; its highest and best use will stop being agriculture. Buildings built for one purpose gradually deteriorate, and as the community changes, are no longer suitable to the current highest and best use of that land. At one time in NYC - say, 1880 - 21 year leases were common, and huge department stores and other edifices were built on them. It was understood that another building would likely follow. And it did. And the landlord got his "share." How did he earn that share? And look at the teardowns in your part of the country. Homes that seem perfectly serviceable to some of us are bought to be torn down to build something else on that well-located land. It doesn't happen on the edge of town; it happens in the center of things. The price one is willing to pay to get that land is pretty clear: the transaction plus the cost of removing the old improvement.

To your fourth problem: the land owner who doesn't improve his land can still sell it for a higher price due to the activity of the community around him. The value of the improvements never exceeds their replacement value, but could be quite a bit less. A huge spa resort built 15 or 20 miles from Disney World is likely an over-development of the land it is built on, while closer to DW, it might be quite appropriate and profitable. One who is building with consideration to others' preferences -- as customers or as tenants -- will build differently from one who simply wants what they want, without regard to resale value. We don't increase the unimproved value of our own sites, but we can contribute to the value of the surrounding sites -- or we might decrease the value. Increasing it doesn't exempt us from any portion of the value of our own site. Our neighbors' actions can increase or decrease the value of our own site. Regular reassessments take that into account.

Re: Georgism

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't believe so. Thanks for giving your off the cuff opinion against a consensus of people studying the question > which would necessarily skyrocket the land value tax to produce the same tax revenue at the end of the day -- would be extremely distortionary. It's distortionary against the existing distortions, by reducing them. Anything reducing tax distortions is "distortionary" by your argument's logic

Thanks for assuming that it's an "off-the-cuff opinion", as opposed to what might have been gathered from a great deal of expert reading. I was trying to be polite -- unlike yourself, sadly. Why don't you educate yourself? Starting here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimal_tax As you can plainly see, land value tax is hardly the centerpiece of strategies to minimize distortion. In fact, it's left for the end of the…

I'm sorry, but offhandedly dismissing opinions like you did there triggers snippy reactions from me.

That said your opinion is clearly not gathered by expert reading, because I've done that reading and it comes to a different conclusion.

If you're interested in optimal taxation, I'd skip reading Wikipedia page and just go read the 2008 Mankiw literature review on "optimal taxation in theory and practice" instead. It doesn't touch land value taxation (which is a niche topic) but is very accessible and a good read.

Second, when metropolitan LVT is studied, the theoretical social benefits are large bordering on the absurd. Here's a study by the NY fed:

https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/econo...

It massively reduces income and wealth inequality (lots of inequality is tied up in urban real estate ownership).

Re: Georgism

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never seen the numbers proposed in a way that makes sense. We know what the total budget is right now, at a national, state, and local level. And we know where that income is coming from -- mostly a mix of income, property, sales, payroll, corporate, and other taxes. And crucially we know exactly what the breakdown of that taxation burden is on various people in various financial situations. I want to see the nu…

The problem with looking at it this way is that we can see what will happen in the first months or years of the new tax system, because values take a while to change. But what we really care about is what the system looks like a decade in, after property values have massive changes. And what it looks like 50 years in, after cities have been remade to reflect the shift in tax costs. I don't think any modern day Georgi…

When HG was writing, there were taxes on land, on buildings, on personal property such as watches, horses, carriages, umbrellas ... the poor paid the personal property taxes -- and widows and orphans paid them, because their trustee wouldn't swear off on less than the real amount. But on his own holdings, well, they were quite meager. Some interesting news articles compared the personal property of rich decedents to the personal property on which they paid annual taxes.

There were also significant tariffs on imported goods. Sugar and tea, which the poor liked as well as the rich. One of HG's books was "Protection or Free Trade" which Milton Friedman called his favorite book on the topic. (Then again, Friedman repeatedly called land value taxation the "least bad" tax, but never found the motivation to promote its application.) I had occasion to dip into POFT last week, and found it pleasurable and interesting reading. Its at Schalkenbach's website, among other places.

Yes, a shift could be quite gradual, though I suspect that once it was begun, and people began to see the beauty of untaxing buildings, wages, sales, it would likely be sped up.

Re: Georgism

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They would (probably) make up their losses through rent increases and additional service charges - effectively passing on the tax to renters and leaseholders. Since no land can be created or destroyed, the supply-demand curve is fixed. This means that the land tax cannot be passed onto the renter, because the market conditions haven't changed. The rent is not calculated based on the landlord's costs plus some extra…

> … if landlords have the market power to raise rents, why wouldn't they just do it now, rather than wait until an LVT is passed? That logic only works in a non-competitive market. The reason they don't raise rates is obvious: There are other landlords around and any one landlord raising rates would lose business to the others. If you raise costs for all landlords, however—for example, by imposing a LVT—then there is…

You can't extract more rent if you charge maximum of what your customer can afford. If landlords raised rents collectively then people would simply sprawl out to suburbs.

City rent is an aggregate monopoly - there is not enough supply of housing to have effect on downward pressure for rents. Demand is overwhelming supply.

Landlords' rent prices are not driven by competition but determined by what the market can bear.

Re: Georgism

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Land value tax is considered among the economists as being one of the least distortionary taxes.

I don't believe so. It's considered to remove distortions in land use , as compared to property taxes that include the value of structures. In other words, you get less vacant lots and more productive use of land. Which there are good arguments for. But proposing to replace income and sales taxes with land value taxes, making it the primary tax -- which would necessarily skyrocket the land value tax to produce the sa…

just curious, what sort of distortions would you expect to see with a very high LVT?

Re: Georgism

#278
post #270

So this seems all well and good for urban areas but what about rural land ownership? Or is that not a concern here?

Rural areas don't need the kinds of infrastructure that urban areas need, but they need some. They need schools, they need roads and maintenance. They'd love to have broadband. They may need drainage or water systems that serve undense communities. They need emergency services, courts, and a variety of other things that civilized people who live in communities find valuable. (My use of "civilized" is in no way a criticism.) We are social beings, and there are things that are more efficiently done by the community as a whole.

Earlier, someone referred to the Henry George Theorem. I think it holds in rural places, too. And unimproved land value seems to me to be the reasonable "tax base."

Re: Georgism

#279

Allegedly, Karl Marx called Georgism "capitalism's last ditch ". I can't find a source, but this was an interesting collection of historical thoughts: https://merionwest.com/2019/06/02/through-letters-the-gap-be...

Many people who were first influenced by Henry George's ideas became impatient with the "organicness" of them, and moved to promoting socialism because they thought it would achieve their objectives more quickly. But George was convinced that it had to grow organically.

George's simple reform would provide the level playing field, and not involve "command and control." George was very much the small-d democrat and very much the capitalist -- but a purer capitalism, not land monopoly capitalism. And he could accurately be called a mensch!

George Bernard Shaw was perhaps the most famous of them.

Henry George had public debates with several socialists (Serge Shevitch was one - 1887; Henry Hyndman another). They're great reading.

Re: Georgism

#280

Allegedly, Karl Marx called Georgism "capitalism's last ditch ". I can't find a source, but this was an interesting collection of historical thoughts: https://merionwest.com/2019/06/02/through-letters-the-gap-be...

Many people who were first influenced by Henry George's ideas became impatient with the "organicness" of them, and moved to promoting socialism because they thought it would achieve their objectives more quickly. But George was convinced that it had to grow organically.

George Bernard Shaw was perhaps the most famous of them.

Henry George had public debates with several socialists (Serge Shevitch was one - 1887; Henry Hyndman another). They're great reading.

Post reply on HN