No One Goes There Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: No One Goes There Anymore

#271

Post by rayiner » Sun, May 17, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

ido wrote: post #207

lettergram wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had cancer in the US a $65k bill really isn’t bad. Consider in the US taxes are typically In Germany (if I recall) it’s closer to 50% taxes so $50k a year. Presumably you can expect cancer once or less, but effectively you only need ~4 years of income to make up for that $65k bill in the US. Not bad at all. Obviously that differs based on income, but you can a see how (for many people in the US) the system works…

Total income-related taxes+health insurance in California are IIRC similar or higher than Germany. Also in either case the taxes on $100k/year are way less than 50%. EDIT from what I can tell from very quick googling total taxes on $100k in California would be ~29% ( not including health insurance) where as in Germany they would be ~34% (on $100k = ~€92k, including health insurance). So I guess whatever's better in t…

I get different numbers from here: http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm

On 92,000 Euro I get 45% total. In California it’s 30%. Moreover, if you’re making $100,000, you’re almost certainly getting health insurance as part of the salary in California, so you don’t need to add the cost of health insurance on top of that.

Re: No One Goes There Anymore

#272

Post by rayiner » Sun, May 17, 2020, 6:38 PM UTC

SECProto wrote: post #213

tghw wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if you make the US median individual income of $31k?

If you make 31k, you likely don't have the good health insurance of the OP, and your final bill would be hundreds of thousands (i.e. it couldn't be afforded)

If you make $31,000 as a non-elderly single person, you’re at 250% of the FPL and there is an 89% chance you’re insured: https://www.cbpp.org/uninsured-rates-are-higher-at-lower-inc.... Under Obamacare, there really isn’t any health insurance plans that will leave you with hundreds of thousands in costs without coverage (leaving aside surprise out-of-network doctors and that’s a loophole people on both sides of the aisle are trying to fix).

Re: No One Goes There Anymore

#273

Post by rhino369 » Sun, May 17, 2020, 6:41 PM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #241

cactus2093 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add my own anecdote about US healthcare, I needed a hernia repair surgery in my early 20’s. My dr referred me to a specialist, I asked if he was in network for my insurance and everything seemed good. But in what I have since come to realize is a quintessential US healthcare experience, it turns out the facility that this independent surgeon used and the anesthesiologist were not in network. Nobody bothered to tel…

Makes me think they can write it off their taxes as "uncollectable."

Yes, but they also had to add 50k of uncollectable revenue. So its not really doing anything for them for their taxes.

It's mostly a game played between insurance provider and medical provider. They ask for 50k--knowing it the insurance is going to low ball them.

Re: No One Goes There Anymore

#274

Post by rayiner » Sun, May 17, 2020, 6:45 PM UTC

vertex-four wrote: post #221

lettergram wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had cancer in the US a $65k bill really isn’t bad. Consider in the US taxes are typically In Germany (if I recall) it’s closer to 50% taxes so $50k a year. Presumably you can expect cancer once or less, but effectively you only need ~4 years of income to make up for that $65k bill in the US. Not bad at all. Obviously that differs based on income, but you can a see how (for many people in the US) the system works…

Germany's average tax rate (according to the OECD) for a one-earner married couple with two children is 34.3%, while the same in the US is 18.8%. Taking these, the difference for your $100k/year example would be about 15k. You'd have about 80k in the US, and about 65k in Berlin. Now to compare cost of living - let's say you wanted to compare Berlin vs SF, for similarly ridiculous housing markets. A quick search[0] su…

A high-tech worker living in SF is actually not “one of the best case scenarios.” As your calculations show, the insane cost of living blows out the somewhat higher income. In terms of actual prosperity, run the numbers for places like Iowa. Salaries are 1/2 as much in Des Moines than San Francisco, but a house costs about 1/8th as much. And 95% of people have health insurance. There is a reason people are actually flooding out of California and New York.

I wonder if the insane costs and dysfunction of coastal cities is one of the driving factors of the differences in politics between those places and the rest of the country. I live in a Trump precinct in a historically red but recently purple county about an hour from DC. Median income in my county is $90,000, and you can buy a family house in a good school district for $300,000. We might feel differently about politics if our incomes were no higher and houses cost $1.3 million and our schools were among the worst in the country. But that’s California’s self-inflicted problem.

Re: No One Goes There Anymore

#275

Post by ido » Sun, May 17, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #271

ido wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total income-related taxes+health insurance in California are IIRC similar or higher than Germany. Also in either case the taxes on $100k/year are way less than 50%. EDIT from what I can tell from very quick googling total taxes on $100k in California would be ~29% ( not including health insurance) where as in Germany they would be ~34% (on $100k = ~€92k, including health insurance). So I guess whatever's better in t…

I get different numbers from here: http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm On 92,000 Euro I get 45% total. In California it’s 30%. Moreover, if you’re making $100,000, you’re almost certainly getting health insurance as part of the salary in California, so you don’t need to add the cost of health insurance on top of that.

Ah, I think I see the difference - for singles (class I) it gives you 43%, I mistakenly chose the married category (class III, in my mind that was the "default" tax class - probably cause that's how I have always filed in Germany), in which case the rate is 33%.

Re: No One Goes There Anymore

#276

Post by dang » Sun, May 17, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

freefriedrice wrote: post #18

dang wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you've resumed posting flamebait, we've banned you again. Could you please not create accounts to break HN's guidelines with? You're welcome here otherwise; you've posted some quite good comments and I appreciate those, as I'm sure many readers have. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: That was probably the wrong call and I reversed it; see comments below.

?

I was reacting more to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23180680 from earlier in the day. But actually I think I overreacted here. You shouldn't have added the flamey swipe about countries and health care, but the intention of your comment was clearly to express support to someone, and I should have weighted that more. Sorry! I've unbanned your account.

Re: No One Goes There Anymore

#277

Post by vertex-four » Sun, May 17, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #274

vertex-four wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany's average tax rate (according to the OECD) for a one-earner married couple with two children is 34.3%, while the same in the US is 18.8%. Taking these, the difference for your $100k/year example would be about 15k. You'd have about 80k in the US, and about 65k in Berlin. Now to compare cost of living - let's say you wanted to compare Berlin vs SF, for similarly ridiculous housing markets. A quick search[0] su…

A high-tech worker living in SF is actually not “one of the best case scenarios.” As your calculations show, the insane cost of living blows out the somewhat higher income. In terms of actual prosperity, run the numbers for places like Iowa. Salaries are 1/2 as much in Des Moines than San Francisco, but a house costs about 1/8th as much. And 95% of people have health insurance. There is a reason people are actually f…

And someone not living in Berlin can live significantly cheaper too - do you want to pick a city similar to Des Moines in Germany?

EDIT: I took your number of 1/2 as truth, went through the numbers, and... our worker in Des Moines makes about 5k a year more than the one in Berlin. It'd still take 12 years to pay off the person above's unexpected medical expenses.

Then, after running the numbers for a high-tech worker, do you want to run the numbers for your janitor?

The definition of "health insurance" in the US is weird - it doesn't actually seem to mean you're going to be able to be able to access either expected or unexpected healthcare needs at a price you can afford.

Re: No One Goes There Anymore

#278

Post by dang » Sun, May 17, 2020, 7:05 PM UTC

teddyh wrote: post #180

dang wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you've resumed posting flamebait, we've banned you again. Could you please not create accounts to break HN's guidelines with? You're welcome here otherwise; you've posted some quite good comments and I appreciate those, as I'm sure many readers have. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: That was probably the wrong call and I reversed it; see comments below.

I must say that I don’t see the alledged “flamebait” in freefriedrice’s comment. What is it that you see that I don’t?

"I'm sorry you don't live in a country with real health care" broke this guideline: "Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents."

On second look, though, I think I mis-moderated and have unbanned the account. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23214383.

Re: No One Goes There Anymore

#279

Post by TrackerFF » Sun, May 17, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

jerome-jh wrote: post #161

magicalhippo wrote: post #30

When I see about half my paycheck going to taxes it feels a bit rough. But then I think of stories like this, and how easily it could have been me with an illness requiring expensive medical treatment and possibly preventing me from working regular jobs. And so I pay my tax with pleasure, knowing that if something were to happen to me or my fellow citizen, at least there wouldn't be millions of dollars in hospital bi…

From this side of the Altantic, it looks like the US economy is organized so that the lower working class only earns just enough to live. No wonder they are homeless when illness, disability or bad luck strikes. I am not implying this applies to OP.

The thing you need to know about US economics (and politics), is that it's always driven by some narrow special interest group. Just follow the money, and you'll find some billionaire with special interest, and their millionaire enablers.

I'm not saying that it's not like that in other countries, but the big difference between the US and many other western countries, is that core services (health, education, freedom, etc.) are unfortunately so heavily influenced by private interest, that the majority of Americans end up paying more for less - while some few end up filthy rich.

And it is quite interesting - if you ever find yourself reading about some policies getting put on the table, just follow the money.

Re: No One Goes There Anymore

#280

Post by code_duck » Sun, May 17, 2020, 7:58 PM UTC

john-radio wrote: post #233

lotsofpulp wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US government healthcare spend is huge, it is not tiny compared to military. $1.1T according to this source in fiscal year 2018: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-much-does-... This website states in 2018, the federal government spent $582B on Medicare, and $389B on Medicaid, plus all the tax exemption for employer sponsored health insurance and ACA subsidies to individual buyers, etc. https://www.the…

You're assuming they're talking about America, but you're probably not talking to Americans, because: > if something were to happen to me or my fellow citizen, at least there wouldn't be millions of dollars in hospital bills to pay back and there would be aid for a home to avoid ending up on the streets Not trying to be an asshole, but that's not a description of the American system.

It depends on your financial situation and what state you live in. Most of the places I’ve lived, such as Minnesota or Oregon, do have systems for emergency medical assistance. They also currently have great insurance for people who truly can’t afford it. People in middle income ranges are the worst off, though.

Personally, I was just hospitalized with a bout of diabetic ketoacidosis, probably just a day away from going into a coma. I haven’t even had to see a bill. It was 100% paid by the state and federal programs.

If I hadn’t set up insurance before going to the doctor, though, I’d have received ridiculously high bills, probably been provided less service, and it would be up to me to get it paid back. I had a situation before where I went to the ER while an insurance application was pending, and then after it was approved and I provided my info, the private hospital dilly dallied and sent it to collections anyway.