Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses • Hacker News Board

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#271

Post by johnchristopher » Thu, May 14, 2020, 10:08 AM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> This requires trust. Like the current politicians or not, most populations respect their governments and are willing to support emergency measures in the short term. Whether they voted for them or not, they trust that their leaders are not evil.

Wait, in France and Belgium, the police is coming after your during lockdown. Think: road checkups, city patrols, etc. Fines are being sent left and right and people ended up in jail for breaking the lockdown too many times.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#272

Post by henrikschroder » Thu, May 14, 2020, 10:14 AM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #122

apostacy wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, Sweden never had shelter in place orders, and they did not fare worse than France or Ireland.

According to EuroMOMO, Sweden's excess mortality rate this year is "high", France's is "low" and Ireland's is "no excess". https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

The map shows per-week z-score excess, not some kind of yearly total. What you said only applies to week 17.

During week 15 (Easter), Sweden had "very high" excess, Ireland had "low" excess, while UK, France, Spain, and Italy had "extremely high" excess.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#273

Post by simiones » Thu, May 14, 2020, 10:14 AM UTC

Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #217

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lockdowns-are-destroying-America echo chamber and a republicans-are-killing-people echo chamber. These are probably both mostly wrong, but on the plus side things must be getting better because we're back to tribalism.

Here is what I don't understand. (I seriously don't, and would honestly appreciate some explanations or ideas. And keep in mind I am 100% on board with following any and all recommendations of the CDC.) When we were all sent to sit at home back in March, the word was "flatten the curve." The idea was that containment was no longer an option, as declared by the CDC/WHO. Epidemiologists were predicting that somewhere b…

I think you're missing a few aspects that explain the change in attitude pretty well:

- While most people have almost nothing to fear personally from this virus, the vast majority of people have close ones that do have a lot to fear from the virus

- We have all found out since March, and took to heart, that you may get the virus, feel well, pass it on to loved ones who are at risk, and only later start having ANY symptoms

- the time required until 40-70% of the population will catch this virus while never having so much people infected that hospitals are overwhelmed is YEARS - the popular flatten the curve article omitted this little piece of math

- and obviously, everyone was probably pretty moved by the scenes from Italy and Spain, which brought it much closer to home than similar scenes in China or Iran ever could

So overall, most people are understandably reluctant to go on vacations or visit too many restaurants and concerts, and this will likely continue for a good long time. It is going to be devastating to these industries, but it's going to help keep the curve flat, and I'm sure that we'll see plenty stimulus packages in the months to come. Keeping things forcefully shut down is not going to help in places that are in good shape. However, the alternative must still be social distancing and careful screening and perhaps even enforced quarantine for people coming from hotspots, whether internal or international.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#274

Post by rubidium » Thu, May 14, 2020, 10:28 AM UTC

techsupporter wrote: post #223

roenxi wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

Most people I’ve talked to pushing for government to reopen things have lost jobs and businesses... or are about to. Their basic survival needs are being threatened. Show a little more compassion.

I recommend talking to some people instead of parroting the pictures you see in the news.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#275

Post by soco » Thu, May 14, 2020, 10:33 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #206

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…

As seen from Switzerland, yours is the typical "us vs them" US reaction the OC was complaining about. The world is not only US and China and putting it in a black or white setup ignores other hundreds of governments, hundreds of countries and hundreds of approaches to pandemic and life in general.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#276

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 14, 2020, 10:35 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #206

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…

[deleted]

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#277

Post by tolqen » Thu, May 14, 2020, 10:36 AM UTC

makomk wrote: post #263

vkou wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The incumbent candidate wants to reopen. Because the election is near, it's especially important for the other side to portray whatever he does as wrong and incompetent and life-threatening. So you then have a major political apparatus pushing the argument that reopening is dangerous and publicizing any instance of any authority saying anything negative about it. They don't benefit from a nuanced or moderate positi…

All of the stupid, cynical partisan bullshit that America's press comes up with to try and kick Trump out of office is spilling over to other countries and screwing up our ideas about our coronavirus responses, though. For example, early on the CDC screwed up its coronavirus test, delaying the rollout of wider testing. The press saw blood and started blaming all the American deaths on the Trump administration failing…

> For example, in the UK our right-wing party is currently in power, which means that arguments that their lockdown rules are illegitimate and exceed their powers mostly come from supporters of the other, left-wing party. The justifications for why they're exceeding their powers actually look similar in many ways to the ones in this lawsuit.

Not convinced you’ve even been following British politics then. The main criticism coming from Starmer is about late decision making and inaction. I haven’t heard anything about abuse of powers or a clamour to reopen from them.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#278

Post by fennecfoxen » Thu, May 14, 2020, 10:37 AM UTC

Narkov wrote: post #140

mchusma wrote: post #95

“If a forest fire breaks out, there is no time for debate. Action is needed. The governor could declare an emergency and respond accordingly. But in the case of a pandemic, which lasts month after month, the governor cannot rely on emergency powers indefinitely,” Roggensack wrote for the majority. Refreshing to see some pressure for democracy to resume.

Democracy to resume?? By striking down a democratically elected officials order?

Yes, in a dispute filed by the democratically elected members of the legislature? With the end result being that a democratically elected legislature with more than one person will have the opportunity to talk about the tradeoffs involved, make the case for constituents, and decide things like whether the response must be uniform between the dense cities and the rural countryside.

This is a strict increase in democracy.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#279

Post by r_c_a_d » Thu, May 14, 2020, 10:45 AM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #240

techsupporter wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously. At the risk of potentially misunderstanding what you meant, there's a yawning chasm between "freedom to die from COVID-19 because public health orders are affronts to liberty" and "extra-judicially kidnapped by one's own government." I'd much rather li…

I will judge a thing on it's merits. I will judge a government by how it behaves, not by my preferred political party. So... in the UK we have the Daily Briefings about covid. Each time I listen to it I hear politicians (they take it in turns) to come out and give us a fucking performance, projecting their voice, projecting (they think) 'calm' and 'competent' and 'in charge of it all' while they spew words for 15 or…

I think the daily briefings are good. It's not just a politician talking; it's a politician flanked by two scientists or public health experts. The politician explains what is going on and the experts explain why, with data. This is the first time in my life I can remember politicians so publicly deferring to experts with evidence.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#280

Post by henrikschroder » Thu, May 14, 2020, 10:45 AM UTC

nick_kline wrote: post #203

rayiner wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC is clearly worse, but NYC is also vastly worse than any other place in the US. In terms of density and scale of international travel (or the lack of both), Sweden is more comparable to Maryland or Virginia. Virginia, with 8.5 million people, has had less than 900 deaths. DC, which is only a bit smaller than Stockholm and similar in density, has had just 328 deaths, compared to over 1,200 in Stockholm

Correct about Sweden. We can compare Sweden to Switzerland (8.5 million vs 10 mil pop in Sweden). Switz has 1870 deaths, Sweden 3460. Sweden is far worse per capita than it's small northern euro neighbors too (actually deaths per million, Sweden, then Norway, Finland, Denmark are (343) and (42, 51, 92). IHME [1] estimates Sweden will have 5760 deaths, Switz 1935. Correcting for relative populations (10/8.5) Switz's 1…

> I'm not sure why people have seized on Sweden as doing it right

Sweden is one of the countries that have enacted the least strict measures, it's an outlier in strategy, and has therefore attracted a lot of attention from people wishing to use it as an example while arguing for their own strategy.

According to the lockdown aficionados, Sweden is a zombie wasteland whose officials are gleefully sacrificing the elderly, while the nation's youth is cavorting on the streets spreading the virus indiscriminately, and in two weeks the death rate is going to spike, just you wait! Therefore, lockdowns are a necessity!

According to the lockdown skeptics, Sweden is a bastion of freedom and liberty where it's business as usual, not a single restaurant or bar closed, all schools are open, and the streets are full of people enjoying life like normal. Sweden has a death rate similar to many European countries, therefore lockdowns are completely unnecessary!

The truth is of course that both of these viewpoints are wrong, and most importantly, you can't assume that applying Sweden's strategy anywhere else would get the same results. But that doesn't stop people from cherrypicking exactly the stats they like in order to argue for the strategy they like.

Also note that IHME has up until recently been absolutely, fantastically, horribly wrong in their projections for Sweden. Like many other comparison sites, they're using the reporting dates for deaths instead of the actual death dates. If you want better data for Sweden, please check out this site instead: https://adamaltmejd.se/covid/