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Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

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Re: Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

#271
post #117

Yes. Why? Cost, availability, flexibility, bandwidth. For a lot of companies, on-prem servers are the best solution for efficiency and cost. One great example. We were paying $45k/yr for a hosted MS Dynamics GP solution. For $26k we brought it in house with only a $4k/yr maintenance fee. We bought a rackmount Dell, put on VMWare, have an app VM and a DB VM. My team can handle basic maintenance. In the past 11 months…

> The Cloud is just someone else's computer.

Well, not if it's private cloud, and only partially it's hybrid cloud. Cloud is dynamic provisioning, public cloud is cloud that is also on rented hardware.

> If they're running those machines more cheaply than you are, they're cutting out some cost.

Economies of scale are a real thing.

Re: Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

#272

I'm slowly coming to the complete opposite opinion you seem to have. I've worked almost entirely for companies that run services in various cloud infrastructures - Azure/Heroku/Aws/GCP/Other. I recently started a tiny 1 man dev shop in my spare time. Given my experience with cloud services it seemed like a no brainer to throw something up in the cloud and run with it. Except after a few months I realized I'm in an in…

What's the time trade-off? I've been drawing out my plans lately for a hobby project, all 100% on AWS. Being able to spin up my entire infrastructure with Terraform, build out images with Packer, setup rules for off-site backups, ensure everything is secure to the level I want it, etc. - It takes me next to no time at all. I can't imagine buying hardware, ensuring my home is setup with proper Internet, configuring ev…

Do you think automation doesn't exist with on-prem? The vSphere terraform provider is very mature.

https://www.terraform.io/docs/providers/vsphere/index.html

You can build your own machine images with packer, and actually have more control by building them from scratch (ISO) rather than being locked into a selection of base AMIs.

https://www.packer.io/docs/builders/vmware/

You can launch HA kubernetes clusters with cluster API. vSphere, openstack and even bare metal pxe all have providers

https://cluster-api.sigs.k8s.io/user/quick-start.html

Cloud native is not just for the public cloud!

Re: Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

#273

I'm slowly coming to the complete opposite opinion you seem to have. I've worked almost entirely for companies that run services in various cloud infrastructures - Azure/Heroku/Aws/GCP/Other. I recently started a tiny 1 man dev shop in my spare time. Given my experience with cloud services it seemed like a no brainer to throw something up in the cloud and run with it. Except after a few months I realized I'm in an in…

> Backups are still offsite, so if my place burns I'm just out on uptime

There are plenty of exceptions, but I generally find uptime is given way too much consideration for the value it gives. Most companies up to the national level generally only require about 12 hours a day of uptime from most of their software, more than that is a nice to have, but the company won't collapse if you turn off the servers overnight because no one is working anyway. Even a whole day outage of a critical system can just mean that work has to be delayed for a day and everyone has to work a bit harder the next day. Then as you move down the scale of importance outages can be much longer before people will even notice.

I've seen plenty of "5 nines" style requirements put forth but few that truly need it and even fewer that have considered the costs imposed by it.

Re: Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

#274

Like many others have pointed out: Cost. I'm the CTO of a moderately sized gaming community, Hypixel Minecraft, who operates about 700 rented dedicated machines to service 70k-100k concurrent players. We push about 4PB/mo in egress bandwidth, something along the lines of 32gbps 95th-percentile. The big cloud providers have repeatedly quoted us an order of magnitude more than our entire fleet's cost....JUST in bandwid…

> Cloud is great if your workload is variable and erratic Or if you're just constantly iterating on a large product with many engineers. Those engineers' salaries almost always outweigh all of your cloud costs and so making them productive is cost effective. Things like SNS/SQS/S3/VPC/ELB/etc. save you countless hours and often make up for the increased cloud costs with increased developer productivity.

> Those engineers' salaries almost always outweigh all of your cloud costs

I think there is a divide here. Most people in this thread that mention cost as an issue are running some serious gear, and that does not come cheap. Your parent is running 70 servers plus some serious networking equipment, which is easily a couple million dollars. And he said that a cloud provider would 10x that cost.

If all you need is a little VM to run a website, cloud hosting is cheap. If you are running real infrastructure, a couple hours of developer time will never out-weight the astronomical costs of cloud hosting.

Re: Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

#275
For hobby projects, I own a moderately outdated 1U "pizzabox" installed in a downmarket colocation facility in a nearby major city. Considering the monthly colocation rate and the hardware cost amortized over two years (I will probably not replace it that soon but it's what I've used for planning), this works out to appreciably less than it would cost to run a similar workload on a cloud provider. It costs about the same or possibly a bit less than running the same workload on a downmarket dedi or VPS provider, but it feels more reliable (at least downtime is usually my fault and so under my control) and the specs on the machine are higher than it's easy to get from downmarket VPS operations.

Because my application involves live video transcoding I'm fairly demanding on CPU time, which is something that's hard to get (reliably) from a downmarket VPS operation (even DO or what have you) and costly from a cloud provider. On the other hand, dual 8 core Xeons don't cost very much when they're almost a decade old and they more than handle the job.

There are a few fairly reputable vendors for used servers out there, e.g. Unix Surplus, and they're probably cheaper than you think. I wouldn't trust used equipment with a business-critical workload but honestly it's more reliable than an EC2 instance in terms of lifetime-before-unscheduled-termination, and since I spend my workday doing "cloud-scale" or whatever I have minimal interest in doing it in my off-time, where I prefer to stick to an "old fashioned" approach of keeping my pets fed and groomed.

And, honestly, new equipment is probably cheaper than you think. Dealing with a Dell account rep is a monumental pain but the prices actually aren't that crazy. Last time I purchased over $100k in equipment (in a professional context, my hobbies haven't gotten that far yet) I was able to get a lot for it - and that's well less than burdened cost for one engineer.

Re: Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

#276

Like many others have pointed out: Cost. I'm the CTO of a moderately sized gaming community, Hypixel Minecraft, who operates about 700 rented dedicated machines to service 70k-100k concurrent players. We push about 4PB/mo in egress bandwidth, something along the lines of 32gbps 95th-percentile. The big cloud providers have repeatedly quoted us an order of magnitude more than our entire fleet's cost....JUST in bandwid…

A few years ago I was trying to start a company and get it off the ground. We had to make decisions on our tech stack and whether we were going to use AWS and build around their infra. Our business was very data heavy and required transferring large datasets from outside to our databases. Even in our early prototypes, we realized that we couldn’t scale cost-effectively on AWS. I figured out that we could colocate and rent racks, install HW, hire people to maintain, etc... for way less than we could use the cloud for. I was shocked at the difference. I remember saying to my cofounder why does anyone use AWS, you can do this on your own way cheaper.

Later I worked at a FAANG and remember when Snap filed their S1 when they were going public they disclosed that they were paying Google $5B and we were totally shocked at the cost compared to our own spend on significantly larger infra.

I think people don’t realize this is doable and it’s great to hear stories like yours showing the possibilities.

Re: Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

#277

Like many others have pointed out: Cost. I'm the CTO of a moderately sized gaming community, Hypixel Minecraft, who operates about 700 rented dedicated machines to service 70k-100k concurrent players. We push about 4PB/mo in egress bandwidth, something along the lines of 32gbps 95th-percentile. The big cloud providers have repeatedly quoted us an order of magnitude more than our entire fleet's cost....JUST in bandwid…

Gaming company senior reliability engineer/officer here, with the same tune. We're operating thousands of servers on three continents (NA, Europe, Asia), running our own game distribution network and basically doing as much as possible on prem. Every time we're trying to play by the cloud provider rules, we're getting stung with outrageous storage and bandwidth bills. I'm pushing for in-house k8s deployment to increase hardware utilisation and drive our price/performance ratio even lower, but even now we're much better financially purchasing hardware, putting it in leased racks, doing networking ourselves and going full cycle. Probably, if we would be a smaller shop, we'd outsource networking . That's it.

Re: Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

#278
I haven't personally done detailed cost analysis lately, but if you have systems that regularly operate at 80+% of capacity, I can't see how the operating costs of any cloud operator can be cheaper than operating it yourself. Their whole pricing model is based on being able to over-provision compute and move workloads around within a datacenter. As much as people talk about failing hard drives and other components at scale, failure rates are still low enough that you could operate dozens of systems at full capacity for 3+ years with maybe a handful of legit hardware failures. To rent that same compute from any cloud provider would cost significantly more. The cheapest "Dedicated Host" on AWS will cost you almost $12k over 3 years if you pay for it on-demand, and it's equivalent in specs to something you can buy for ~$2k.

> am I missing something?

I'd want more background behind what you mean by "at least for business". What kind of business? Obviously IaaS providers like Digital Ocean and Linode are are type of business that would not use other clouds. Dropbox and Backblaze as well would probably never use something like S3. And there are legitimate use cases outside of tech that have needs in specific teams for low latency compute, or its otherwise cost and time prohibitive to shuttle terabytes of data to the cloud and back (3D rendering, TV news rooms, etc). If you're talking about general business systems that can be represented by a website or app with a CRUD API, then most of that probably doesn't require on-prem. But that's not the only reason businesses buy servers.

Re: Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

#279
Amazon/Azure/GCP - they're _businesses_. They charge you 50-70 points of margin in order to run your computers. If you're R&D-limited, that's not important to you, but if you're a more mature company that's cost-limited then it matters a lot. If it's a core part of your business, it'll never be cheaper to pay another company to profit from you. Period.

Re: Ask HN: Is your company sticking to on-premise servers? Why?

#280
post #34

I use a $5/mo DigitalOcean VPS droplet instead of AWS or other "cloud" service. I only have to host an analytics dashboard ( https://usertrack.net/ ), I don't need scaling and this way I know exactly how much I will pay. The resources are more than enough for my needs and I don't think it could be much cheaper even on the most optimized pay-per-minute of use cloud platforms. I also have some other APIs hosted in the…

I like DigitalOcean... but they are a cloud service too.

I think the terminology is confusing. If I quote Wikipedia, which should never be done: "Cloud computing is the on-demand availability of computer system resources, especially data storage and computing power, without direct active management by the user".

I personally refer to servers as "cloud" only if they have auto-scaling and usually to services such as AWS or GCP instead of VPSs such as DO, Linode, Vultr, etc.

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