Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#271

Post by CydeWeys » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

gizmo686 wrote: post #144

hnburnsy wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My anctedot... My daughter at college has three academic advisors; a general advisor, honors advisor, and her chosen major advisor. Geeesh.

And how much "advice" to they give? When I went, the only time you had to talk to your advisor, was once a semester for them to rubber stamp your approval for major-only classes (which the official advisors would defer to in-major professors). Beyond that, you were free to talk to advisors on an as needed basis. There role was essentially to be a primary point of contact for students. Why shouldn't a student have mul…

I found my CS advisor repeatedly very helpful. I would not have graduated in four years without her advice.

So, just because you didn't get value out of it doesn't mean that's true for all students.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#272

Post by panzagl » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

optimiz3 wrote: post #154

mrguyorama wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is the thing that is really the most shameful and outrageous thing about the US system. Our entire K-12 educational system and our culture is set up to paint a college degree as a ticket to "the good life". Then an 18-year-old, potentially with parents who aren't great at math but have great aspirations for their child, is sat down and asked to sign a load of papers, not realizing that this will lock them into…

> access a pretty good life for most people Depends on the degree, school, and student. Still true for STEM and medicine.

You mean 'still true for a small selection of engineering degrees/CS and pre-med'

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#273

Post by N1H1L » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

0d9eooo wrote: post #204

lumost wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the oddities in the college process is how public universities followed the price increases of their private counterparts. Why weren't state governments able to dictate effective cost controls to keep costs down for residents? Note that I'm aware of in-state tuition. The main campus of my state university charges 30k/year instate, and 40k/year out of state. Neither number is appropriate in a state with a media…

If you can figure out the reasons for university price increases, good luck. It's a combination of a variety of things. One is that increased demand for employers for "certification" of ability pushes demand for degrees among students. Every recession there's articles showing that those with a college degree fare better than those without. We can argue about why that is, but that's what the average 17 yo sees, along…

Also have you seen how much reporting requirements have increased for faculty? How much paperwork is needed for grants?

Just today there was a story I read about a Georgia Tech professor who is under federal investigation for misrepresentation on her continuing NSF grant. And the money involved was $40,000. And one of her defenses is that Georgia Tech provided very little secretarial services to her. Which may very well be true.

Everyone cribs about increased administrative bloat at universities, but given how massively paperwork requirements have ballooned, nobody is willing to point the figure also at that. Universities are hiring more admin because professors are often overwhelmed with paperwork nowadays.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#274

Post by Auracle » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

teh_infallible wrote: post #264

0xffff2 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that bad? Humanities departments are already shrinking without any changes because there's just no demand. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me that if you are determined to get a degree in philosophy, which has virtually no job prospects outside of teaching the next generation of philosophy students, you have to go do that at one of a handful of schools that carve out a niche for themselves with a philosop…

As someone who majored in English, I assert that the emphasis on STEM and shift away from the humanities is causing serious problems in our society. Specifically, having a population lacking in critical reading skills makes everyone more susceptible to propaganda, and less able to critique and assess flawed arguments in writing. If you want to know why, for example, our political “debates” are shallow circuses of mis…

Just 40 years ago it was pretty rare for someone to go to college, so I don’t think you can blame a shift away from humanities on that.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#275

Post by jedberg » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

lilott8 wrote: post #263

jedberg wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us should be regularly lobbying our lawmakers to make student loans dischargeable by bankruptcy, just like any other loan. The reason they aren't dischargeable is because what bank in their right mind would give a loan to an 18 year old with no collateral? They only guarantee they get that it will be paid back is the fact that it can't be discharged. Student loans would dry up overnight if they could be disc…

Isn't this why the cosigner exists on student loans? Basically the cosigner is the one with collateral, capable of meeting the terms of the loan. While IANAL, my understanding of reading a master promissory note for student loans is that basically the debt falls to the cosigner should the primary be unable to meet the financial obligations in any way (after wage garnishing, etc).

Yes cosigners exist, but the loan still has no collateral. Usually a loan pays for a tangible asset that can be taken away when you fail to pay.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#276

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

0xffff2 wrote: post #226

jedberg wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A funny idea, but also a great way to make sure that schools only offer majors with a high average post-grad salary.

Is that bad? Humanities departments are already shrinking without any changes because there's just no demand. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me that if you are determined to get a degree in philosophy, which has virtually no job prospects outside of teaching the next generation of philosophy students, you have to go do that at one of a handful of schools that carve out a niche for themselves with a philosop…

[deleted]

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#277

Post by dmoy » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:29 PM UTC

N1H1L wrote: post #262

wincy wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I’m a Republican legislator and I’m seeing my kids enroll at a state college where gender and queer studies classes are a requirement to get a computer science degree, I’m going to want to defund too. I remember my Republican high school peers arguing with our liberal debate coach, and he’d just laugh and say “wait until you go to college, then you’ll get it”. Sure enough, she went to Harvard Law and became a Demo…

State schools in US are often the best STEM schools. I have cried myself hoarse on HN trying to make this simple point - but except for Cornell, every Ivy League is ordinary in engineering and the hard sciences.

Do we include math and physics in there? If so there might be a couple other exceptions there.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#278

Post by zhdc1 » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:29 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #172

ilamont wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just went through this. The finalist schools -- a big midwest Catholic school and a large NE state university -- offered scholarships or grants between $16k and $21k per year with some caveats such as min 2.0 GPA at one and FAFSA qualifications staying roughly the same over the four year period. These scholarships/grants brought the per-year cost close to the University of Ottawa international rates, about $41k/ye…

> The brand-name private colleges around the Northeast US now have all-in sticker prices of $75k-80k. Financial aid in the form of grants or scholarships (not loans) would have to be $35k-40k to make these schools competitive on a cost basis with the examples given above. Harvard's financial aid is such that if your income is under $150,000, the max you pay is 15K a year.

Harvard : )

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#279

Post by jedberg » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:29 PM UTC

panzagl wrote: post #266

jedberg wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I addressed this in my comment. You'd end up with schools not lowering their prices, they would just be available only to the upper class.

There are not enough upper class to go to all of the schools currently operating- colleges would have to lower prices or disappear.

Yes exactly. The small schools would just disappear, and the big names would keep going.

Re: Colleges at the breaking point, forcing ‘hard choices’ about education

#280

Post by vsareto » Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #211

nimbius wrote: post #64

Disclosure: i never went to college, I went to a trade school. Colleges really only started scaring the heck out of me when I started enjoying my career. After spending a day wrenching in a garage, we'd hit miller time and head down to the Soapbox Bar and Grill. Over the span of a month or two ordering buckets and shooting pool I learned our bartender Javon had a masters in biology and his fiancee Cortisha who bussed…

For the average college graduate, college is still a pretty good investment. I could write lots of comments about people without a college degree that live crappy lives and have trouble finding good paying jobs, and people with college degrees that live well and make a lot of money. My prediction is that we'll see changes in the US system. The problem you're pointing out is the risk. Universities are the ones that IM…

No college is going to advocate for taking future income from students over government backed loans or a traditional loan. The former translates to less immediate income. Colleges had little reason to raise tuition since 2000 except for money, I don't see them suddenly moving to forward-thinking strategies.