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$5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

caloes.ca.gov

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Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#271

Post by gwright »

jimmaswell wrote: post #195
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps the law we need is one to control hoarding behavior or the rate of change. You know what would control hoarding? Higher prices.

Poor people not getting to have toilet paper is not an acceptable solution.

And what is the end result of empty shelves? Is that an acceptable solution?

I don't understand people who advocate for policies that almost guarantee empty shelves instead of a policy that would avoid shortages but at a higher price temporarily.

In my mind the higher price followed by a return to normalcy is a much better outcome for rich and poor alike than a complete shortage with nothing on the shelves.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#273

Post by pmoriarty »

mhb wrote: post #217
cl0rkster wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me that it's unlikely the toilet paper producers are perpetually running at 100% factory output. Something tells me they will respond by increasing production. Why? Because they are seeing enormous sales currently. Of course they want more. With some of the supply chain troubles we are having with everything closing, though, the delay might be slightly longer. I highly doubt this shortage will last longer th…

There's another benefit of the signal sent by high prices. It encourages the use of alternatives. There are many substitutes for toilet paper including other paper products and bidets.

"There are many substitutes for toilet paper including other paper products and bidets."

After coming back from a trip to India, an old housemate of mine told me that a huge part of the world uses their hand to wipe, and he decided to adopt the practice himself. He then warned me not to drink out of a cup he'd left on the floor in the bathroom.

I'm also reminded of a story I'd heard about an American traveling on a train in the Middle East, who'd offered to share some tomatoes he'd brought with him and divided up at lunch, when everyone else in his train compartment was sharing their food. All the other people were happy to share their own food, but none would touch the tomato sliced he offered them. He couldn't figure out why, but in retrospect he realized that it was because he'd touched them with his left hand, which in that part of the world was commonly used to wipe. So everyone would only shake hands with and touch food with their right hand.

I'm not sure how common such practices still are in the modern world, but if paper and bidets wind up in short supply, they're something to think about.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#274

Post by rdiddly »

EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

I hear you on keeping our humanity, and that is presumably the basis of the anti-price-gouging measures in the first place, and those are, at absolute worst, probably not going to do any harm. Still in an uncanny way, I think a "free market" (asterisk, disclaimer, footnotes 1 through n) actually would handle a situation like this fairly effectively. After all, TP that costs more is less likely to be hoarded, and less likely to be an attractive "buy low / sell high" arbitrage (because it's not "low"). Part of the effect of a higher price is less buying (demand). I mean it makes a certain amount of sense.

And I have one anecdatum: I was going to buy TP myself -- not because I hear "pandemic" and my thoughts immediately turn to my anus, but simply because it was getting to be time to reorder the ol' 48-roll brick. But because of this situation, my usual seller was out of stock, and everyone else was in fact, price gouging. So I'm just going to wait. I'll wipe my ass with my hand before I pay those prices. That's the thing, we're not talking penicillin here - you could permanently do without TP. I'll spare you the specific details of how. But one of the things you would need is bleach, which come to think of it, is probably also covered under this anti-price-gouging order, so hey, thumbs-up emoji!

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#275

Post by scruple »

yyy888sss wrote: post #264
gruez wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then they just return their inventory for a full refund.

Australian supermarkets are refusing refunds on all of these hoarded goods.

I'd love to see that stateside, too. I have to go out for some regular old run of the mill groceries tomorrow morning, I'm going to ask about refund/return policies at the two grocers that we frequent.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#276

Post by smnrchrds »

yyy888sss wrote: post #259
EdgarVerona wrote: post #95

A lot of people in this thread are willfully ignoring some basic facts here. These products are being made in sufficient quantity for everyone. There is not a significant decrease in production. There is a significant increase in hoarding, and in many cases it is for the explicit purpose of creating artificial scarcity to increase the price of a product. This is not a case of toilet paper suddenly costing more to pro…

This whole problem was solved in Australia by all supermarkets rationing fast selling goods (1 pack toilet paper, handwipes, pasta etc per day) but keeping prices low.

I agree with the approach but not the instances. 1 pack of toilet paper lasts a good while so that's OK. 1 pack of pasta per day means you have to go back to store every day and expose yourself and others to danger.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#277

Post by skywhopper »

koheripbal wrote: post #254
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. Price isn't even the issue here, just a symptom. Hoarding is the issue. Limit people to not buying 100 rolls of toilet paper, and suddenly the price everyone's willing to pay levels out. Price isn't the problem. Uneven distribution is.

The best solution is to increase production to the point where all those hoarders are left with tons of worthless inventory.

Why is that the best solution? The actual need for toilet paper has not gone up. So increasing capacity would just be a waste of money for manufacturers. They know this too and aren’t stupid enough to try it.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#278

Post by CaptArmchair »

devcpp wrote: post #211
CaptArmchair wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No, you can't have more pie. You have had enough already." Literally any exasperated parent who has to deal with little children having a tantrum because they can't get what they want. Yes, that sounds harsh, but it's exactly how this works. Your statement is simply saying that society - you, me and everyone - should obediently and without criticizing enable those who can't cater to their own emotional needs; those…

So the State is your mom now? Have as much toilet paper as you want, we can make more. Have fun paying stupid prices.

Well, neither you nor I are particularly "special". the State doesn't care about my or your individual feelings. The State puts sustaining the existence of the collective first. And it will do so at the expense of your and my freedom and comfort if necessary.

5.000$ is pretty tame compared to penalties issued by a wartime governments of the past.

I support a State that cares about the general well-being of its citizens and is prepared to that takes stern measures now in hopes of safeguarding our individual freedoms in the future. As such, I harbor little empathy for the individualistic tendencies of those who hoard supplies in times of crisis. All they end up accomplishing down the road is excluding themselves outside of civil society.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#279

Post by trhway »

ardit33 wrote: post #33
anikan_vader wrote: post #16

From an economics stand point, I don't understand why the government should ban price-gouging. Doesn't this place an artificial price ceiling that will ensure a shortage of goods? I would personally rather stores have items such as food/water at marked-up prices than not at all.

Because a lot of the short term price gouging is artificial/predatory: "Vancouver couple exploits pandemic by hoarding Lysol wipes and charging double to resell them." https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2020/03/12/were-hustlers... They are not raising prices to produce more, but just hoarding and then reselling it at higher prices. "Price Gouger Unable to Sell 17,700 Bottles of Hand Sanitizer after Amazon Crackdown"…

>"Vancouver couple exploits pandemic by hoarding Lysol wipes and charging double to resell them."

aren't they doing a public service here? I grew up in the shortage driven economy of USSR and have the hate to speculators and price gouging ingrained into my brain with the milk of the mother, yet hear me out - the consumption of the Lysol wipes has increased while the production stays pretty much the same, and the producer and big distributors and retailers aren't willing to increase the price while the price increase is really necessary to adjust/optimize for the new equilibrium between the new increased consumption and the same production levels, otherwise there will be shortages - similar to CAP theorem you can have either price control or availability (in my experience USSR with price control and total shortages and later, in 199x, Russia with freed prices and immediate availability of everything are direct experimental confirmation of that - you had to see how sausages and everything else magically appeared on Jan 1, 1992 in the just yesterday empty stores, granted it was 3x of the yesterday's fixed price, yet it was really available at that 3x price while yesterday at that nice 1x price it just wasn't there). Thus the price gougers like that couple de-facto do necessary job which the producers/distributors/retailers aren't willing to do.

Re: $5000 per violation of price-gouging in CA

#280

Post by gwright »

mattlutze wrote: post #141
geofft wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't price-gouging usually (and definitely in this context) about someone who bought an item at a standard wholesale price and is reselling it at a markup? That's not about the reward for producing it, that's about the reward for being in the right place at the right time. You can still try to argue that it's economically reasonable to reward people for being in the right place at the right time (to incentivize peop…

Price gouging is the supply side artificially raising prices significantly above normal to take advantage of a temporary imbalance in the anxiety vs actual threat being experienced by the demand side. The day congress declares war on Iran, if you significantly raise fuel prices at your gas station but the wholesale supply hasn't changed, you're generally trying to take advantage of the consumer's fear. We're for some…

> it's (rightly) considered predatory and criminally anti-social

It is this attitude that creates these opportunities. If we collectively understood that allow "surge" pricing is the fastest way to respond to a spike in demand and to quickly return to a more normal market equilibrium we would have fewer and shorter situations like this.

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