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Education and Men without Work

nationalaffairs.com

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Re: Education and Men without Work

#271

Post by cmdshiftf4 »

Pfhreak wrote: post #59
Supermancho wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No critiquing that though, because then my argument might not be sound." I also make statements and pose arguments about all manner of topics without citation of my foundations. I know and believe what I believe (which are different things), but it is not required that I simultaneously try to educate or argue with base topics that are not relevant to my topic. I can argue forever with people who dont or cant come t…

Interesting take, I suppose. It's pretty dismissive of people who don't agree with your beliefs as 'whiners' rather than trying to engage in some sort of discussion with you. I agree that sometimes it's useful to pose arguments and skip the citations, but that usually relies on both parties agreeing that the axioms are at least plausible . I'm willing to entertain discussion on things I don't necessary agree with or…

Not the GP you're replying to, but thought it'd be interesting to chime in to point out that evidence shows that it seems we would have to be absolutely overwhelmed with contradictory evidence, and people we respect bringing it to us, to actually change our opinions or beliefs on anything.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont...

As such, despite being the type to spend countless hours on back-and-forth, pulling up sources, etc. in conversations, I can fully understand GP's point of view that it's fruitless because neither of us (engaged in the back-and-forth) will come out any the better for it, if not worse off due to the entrenching effect the engagement an have on us.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#272

Post by raydev »

freepor wrote: post #86

I thought that government benefits in the US were shite? I can understand why European men might opt-out but I thought that you were basically dooming yourself to homelessness without a job in America. How are these men living?

> I thought that government benefits in the US were shite?

They absolutely are.

What most people are overlooking in this thread is that jobs at the bottom are awful. Minimum wages that haven't changed in years. Places that pay minimum wage also tend toward part time schedules without benefits, and on top of that it's usually shift work where schedules are given a couple weeks in advance.

I have family members who've 'opted' for disability. I don't blame them at all. They'd be in an even worse position having to pay for car maintenance to get them to their shitty jobs.

Also the gov't has perversely incentivized this by ripping all benefits away the moment you get a job, no matter how little it pays or how many hours you get.

But don't be confused, these people on disability aren't enjoying life at all, it's just a slightly more humane way to live.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#273

Post by xyzzyz »

bjourne wrote: post #266
xyzzyz wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$275 a week puts you above the federal poverty threshold, and so, according to the government, is enough to cover basic needs. It is a pittance for HN crowd, but there are tens of millions of people in the US who survive on less than that.

According to Google, the US minimum wage is $7.25. $7.25 * 40 = $290/fulltime week. Tens of millions surviving on less must be an exaggeration?

No. 40 million Americans live for less than that, and half of that lives on less than half that.

https://poverty.ucdavis.edu/m#/faq/what-current-poverty-rate...

Re: Education and Men without Work

#274

Post by raydev »

> Disability benefits are never lavish, but, together with eligibility for additional benefits unlocked by disability enrollment and with resources from family and friends, they can and clearly do provide the basis for a viable work-free existence for many millions of prime-working-age men today.

This really bugs me because I think the author has an opinion that is revealed when they say "viable."

The focus is on the bare minimum benefits instead of the awful job prospects for those at the bottom. Unlivable minimum wage paired with jobs that only offer part-time employment, with wild, unpredictable shift schedules. No health benefits or any notable discounts on food or clothing or anything.

These people live in areas where it's untenable to live without a car. So they end up paying more in car maintenance to drive to a job that pays them less and less.

Gov't benefits that disappear the moment they get a job, which put them in a worse position than if they'd just stayed unemployed. Benefits they might need to pay back to the government.

Of course people opt out. Good for them. But don't for a moment think that they're actually happy about this.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#275

Post by cmdshiftf4 »

wayoutthere wrote: post #28

I think male socialization has left many men poorly-equipped to deal with the modern workplace. Prior to the information age, the primary challenges in the workplace were physical or motivational. So an attitude of "be tough and work through the hard times" was effective and allowed you to earn a living. Boorish behavior was tolerated or even celebrated as "male bonding". But as women entered more professions, that b…

>It is possible to undo, but it takes years of therapy and a commitment to "be better" in the face of misleading signals that say you don't have to change / compromise.

You and I know both know this is uttered with no foundation and amounts to nonsense. There isn't studies to show the effectiveness of "years of therapy" for a "condition" made up in the last decade with little beyond the historical treatment of women in the workplace by men to point to.

You're also fully aware that there's absolutely nothing of substance to point to showing that traditional concepts of masculinity was damaging to other men in the workplace until it was pointed to as discomforting or exclusionary to for women new to the same workplace, and is now being retrofit to try and make the term more inclusive to get more people on board with a concept that has little foundation or backing in... well... anything.

You bring some social science studies proving the existence of "toxic masculinity" and its effects on both women and men that have survived the replication problem, plus therapy studies showing how to effectively "undo" the problems from those studies that themselves have survived the replication problem, and I'll happily commend you for changing my mind on it.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#276

Post by fires10 »

xyzzyz wrote: post #273
bjourne wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Google, the US minimum wage is $7.25. $7.25 * 40 = $290/fulltime week. Tens of millions surviving on less must be an exaggeration?

No. 40 million Americans live for less than that, and half of that lives on less than half that. https://poverty.ucdavis.edu/m#/faq/what-current-poverty-rate...

That is interesting. I will need to look into it more. Household size can skew the numbers with children involved. I could not rent a place and get food and other things like that for that amount. Also unemployment runs out after 6 months.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#277

Post by weepywarlo »

lidHanteyk wrote: post #67
tmux314 wrote: post #42

There's a very weird "let them eat cake" attitude in this thread which I find distressing. The study reports on the millions of working age men in the US who are essentially too depressed and face too many obstacles to search for work. Instead, they're spending their days staying inside, getting high, and playing video games. They essentially have little to no chance to pursue romantic relationships. Many of them eve…

To give my perspective: I'm a cake-eater. I have a dayjob, but I don't really care about it beyond basic professionalism, and I spend a fair amount of my spare time with cannabis and video games rather than with people. Who cares if my male peers think I'm a loser? Most of them are incompetent mooching pieces of shit, and I don't have to believe in their crab mentality. They can say "loser" all they like. Who cares i…

loser this loser that no matter what don’t get fat!

Re: Education and Men without Work

#278

Post by cmdshiftf4 »

jbay808 wrote: post #82
leereeves wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't have any factories anymore. Factories still exist, they're just in other countries. And in China alone, they employ 100 million people.

I don't think the parent meant otherwise. Or are you suggesting that Americans looking for unskilled factory work can just move to China and get a job? Aside from the cost and language barrier and family ties and other challenges of relocating, I think legal barriers alone (visa issues, work permits) would make that hard. It's already hard enough even for highly skilled professionals to get work permits in another co…

>are you suggesting that Americans looking for unskilled factory work can just move to China and get a job? Aside from the cost and language barrier and family ties and other challenges of relocating, I think legal barriers alone (visa issues, work permits) would make that hard. It's already hard enough even for highly skilled professionals to get work permits in another country.

I'm saying this just to play devil's advocate here and propose something slightly contradictory - many people who were facing the same issues (no work, or poor work) in other countries jumped those same hurdles to find work they found meaningful and could provide for themselves and their families in the US and Europe.

If there's an opportunity for a better life elsewhere now - sustainable work paying a sustainable living which can provide for life sustainably elsewhere - what puts American's above picking up and doing their best to go there?

Re: Education and Men without Work

#279

Post by weepywarlo »

lidHanteyk wrote: post #67
tmux314 wrote: post #42

There's a very weird "let them eat cake" attitude in this thread which I find distressing. The study reports on the millions of working age men in the US who are essentially too depressed and face too many obstacles to search for work. Instead, they're spending their days staying inside, getting high, and playing video games. They essentially have little to no chance to pursue romantic relationships. Many of them eve…

To give my perspective: I'm a cake-eater. I have a dayjob, but I don't really care about it beyond basic professionalism, and I spend a fair amount of my spare time with cannabis and video games rather than with people. Who cares if my male peers think I'm a loser? Most of them are incompetent mooching pieces of shit, and I don't have to believe in their crab mentality. They can say "loser" all they like. Who cares i…

Depressionalism can be a constant threat but someday you may want more so it’s up to you to find your inner core.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#280

Post by xupybd »

cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #268
xupybd wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is balancing two parts of human nature. People like to be rewarded for their effort, some people get horribly depressed without this. The other is that people get their happiness from their wealth relative to those around them. It doesn't seem to matter how much wealth people have if inequality is high. How do you build a system that rewards the hard working but limits inequality while allowing some not t…

Seize the means of production and ensure a ruling government whose core is utilitarianism, comrade xupybd.

I think the seize the means of production can be done. The ensure a ruling government whose core is utilitarianism is the tricky part.
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