Earlier quoted context omitted.
Big tech companies maybe don't put kids into mines, but they have other ethical issues (privacy, manipulation with public opinion, etc). I don't think anyone can reliably tell that their issues are more ethical or less ethical than child slavery.
"I don't think anyone can reliably tell that their issues are more ethical or less ethical than child slavery" are you seriously comparing targeting algorithms and child slavery and children dying in mining accidents?
Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt
271–280 of 300 posts
Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt
#272Regarding the legal merits of the case, I notice that don't see any coverage of a proposed theory of liability in the article. The lawsuit text is more informative, pointing at a bunch of sections of US Code about forced labor, trafficking, and sale into voluntary servitude — for instance, 18 U.S. Code § 1589 which notes, "(b) Whoever knowingly benefits, financially or by receiving anything of value, from participati…
Just for the sake of completeness, "knowingly" is a specific legalese term. It means you know the goods are coming from the prohibited source, but still decide to buy it. The total spectrum looks like this: - purposefully: you won't buy cobalt, unless it says "mined by slave children" on the tin - knowingly: you buy cobalt even if it says "mined by slave children" on the tin - recklessly: you know that 90% of world c…
Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt
#273Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's just unrealistic. Here's a challenge - cut cobalt out of your life. I'll bet you can't. "Realistic" is determined entirely by the values of the overarching system. The fate of the people at the long tail of the supply lines isn't valued. That's the single, solitary reason that this shit is still happening. Change that, and the system will adapt. The mines will get better, or they will be replaced with other mi…
How would you suggest we start? Real, concrete steps please.
Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
you're getting lost in the example and losing the idea. The idea is this: You forcibly change the demand to change the behavior of the producer. And there are plenty of examples of us doing this as a society (successfully).
In the successful cases it is easy for the demand to recognize what they are getting. Employer just has to demand passport and they can avoid hiring illegals. Just looking at the person is enough. Same with child porn. Same with anything else where we have curbed demand side. How would you say Microsoft is able to recognize where the cobalt came from? I can’t really see any way here that would not be a de facto ban f…
This is a solved problem. What you and other people are arguing is that it's not solved perfectly.
I don't really give a shit if it's solved perfectly. If we go from say 66% of cobalt being bloody down to 33% of cobalt being bloody. That's a win. We can, over time, learn and adjust to bring it down even further.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt
#275Earlier quoted context omitted.
In a lot of cases Africa's bad leadership is a direct result of the west's former colonial efforts there. Congo in particular suffered at the hands of Belgium. So this sentiment is incomplete.
Congo has been independent for 60 years. How long do you expect to hold Belgium responsible for whatever happens there?
Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt
#276Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why not? If half of the supply disappears overnight, prices will go through the roof, providing an incentive for current producers to increase output, by increasing effort in their existing mining operations, and more than likely by opening new operations.
If there are sanctions, wouldn't it be the demand being changed and not the supply?
But the supply would have to adjust away from the sanctioned region(s) to meet the existing demand.
Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt
#277I found this is very insightful thread on this lawsuit and context behind it: https://mobile.twitter.com/enn_nafnlaus/status/1206896495993... 0) lawyers suing have questionable history BUT 1) Child labor in Africa is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, and just about anything sourced from Africa will have this problem. 2) The Kamoto mine in question is a copper mine. Cobalt is a secondary product. (One coul…
If the DRC is going to allow (or ignore) child labor for Cobalt mining, then there should be tariffs that would make it so expensive that it would make Australian or Canadian Cobalt mines profitable (where we know the workers are fairly compensated and can work in safe environments).
If India is going to look the other way for poor labor practices in ship breaking then there should be a big tariff on the recycled steel that drives that industry. Making properly managed, safe ship breaking in well regulated countries competitive.
If China wants to allow heavy industrial production with no environmental protections, then there should be tariffs on that to make countries that do regulate industrial pollution competitive.
When these countries finally clean up their labor practices and make things safe and equitable for their workers and the environment, then the tariffs go away.
Companies should NOT be able to exploit repression, bullying unsafe practices, child labor or pollution by proxy etc. in order to reduce their costs by moving production to such a country. Trade tariffs, when wielded honestly and effectively should be a tool to prevent that.
Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just for the sake of completeness, "knowingly" is a specific legalese term. It means you know the goods are coming from the prohibited source, but still decide to buy it. The total spectrum looks like this: - purposefully: you won't buy cobalt, unless it says "mined by slave children" on the tin - knowingly: you buy cobalt even if it says "mined by slave children" on the tin - recklessly: you know that 90% of world c…
Not sure I understand the difference between recklessly and negligently? Don't both amount to you not knowing and not wanting to find out?
Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt
#279Re: Tech giants sued over deaths of children who mine cobalt
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think the point is that these lawsuits are intended to raise public awareness of the issue which will ideally put pressure the companies being sued to institute voluntary policing of their supply chain. Beyond the legal merits, tech companies have been talking about "conflict minerals" for a while. You could certainly doubt how seriously committed they are to resolving the minerals-sourcing issues, or even what t…
Are you aware of any organizations that rate electronic companies or battery manufacturers supply chains based on the use of child labor and or other morally questionable behavior? I would like to direct my purchasing power to companies that act ethically to source their materials. It doesn't seem like we can trust companies' own assertions in these areas.