271–280 of 303 posts
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But concepts like "Russian" and "Ukrainian" are time period specific. I think GP is saying that the area has been Russian-majority every since when the distinction between Russian and Ukrainian came into existence.
I think Crimean Tatars might disagree.
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Yes, I also noted this. The question is what does it show for people in Ukraine?
No country, just city. Tried from Ukraine
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Yeah, right, vote under gunpoint of Russian soldiers, organized by Russian side, counted by Russian side, all completed in just two weeks during which the whole peninsula was filled with propaganda claiming Ukraine was taken over by nazi junta so the Choice is either nazi or Russia. What are you doing on hn?
I would like to believe the person you are responding to is very naive, but looking at the account, the comments it makes (most of the comments in the last 2 weeks) and the karma comments receive.. It's either a member of fifth column [0] (could be unwillingly - by accident) or a troll/bot [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency#Troll...
Yes, the Crimean vote was a scam. The way that Crimea was forcefully annexed is certainly not ideal and out of line with modern norms. But that doesn't mean that Crimeans didn't want to rejoin Russia. Both can be true.
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Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country they’d like to be a part of?
Yes, and 97% of Crimea voted to be part of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum
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Interesting and fair enough. Crimeans that I've spoken to are mostly happy with the annexation, but they have complained about the loss of purchasing power (Ruble is stronger than Hryvnia). So infrastructure is better, but their incomes have not adjusted to be in line with rest of Russia and things are more expensive than before.
I am sorry in advance, but to me your comments seem very naive. I guess people who have never survived any kind of foreign oppression, propaganda, active fifth column [0] operating for years in sovereign country, KGB/FSB tactics and mentality, etc. will never fully understand this. > Crimeans that I've spoken to are mostly happy with the annexation 1. They won't tell you otherwise. Ask N. Korean citizen if it likes t…
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I would like to believe the person you are responding to is very naive, but looking at the account, the comments it makes (most of the comments in the last 2 weeks) and the karma comments receive.. It's either a member of fifth column [0] (could be unwillingly - by accident) or a troll/bot [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency#Troll...
Just because someone does not have the mainstream western view does not make them a troll. Suggesting so is intellectually lazy. People are still allowed to think for themselves. Yes, the Crimean vote was a scam. The way that Crimea was forcefully annexed is certainly not ideal and out of line with modern norms. But that doesn't mean that Crimeans didn't want to rejoin Russia. Both can be true.
this line of thinking is not irrational but still very harmful to civilization as a whole. a belief that some chunk of population wants to secede can never be used as grounds for annexation, it should only be used to influence internal political affairs. calling annexation on such grounds "not ideal" is understating it to the point where i can rationally conclude your goal is to just see the civilization burn to the ground.
which coincidentally is exactly the kind of views that russian government trolls promote in all corners of the internet.
yes, "Both can be true", but you don't know if the latter is true without holding a proper referendum with both sides of the question represented fairly and debated widely so that citizens are well informed/educated when going to vote. and that means you should condemn in strongest terms what russia has done (or any other country involved in similar conflict), not just meekly call it "not ideal".
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I am sorry in advance, but to me your comments seem very naive. I guess people who have never survived any kind of foreign oppression, propaganda, active fifth column [0] operating for years in sovereign country, KGB/FSB tactics and mentality, etc. will never fully understand this. > Crimeans that I've spoken to are mostly happy with the annexation 1. They won't tell you otherwise. Ask N. Korean citizen if it likes t…
I actually agree with you (about propaganda, 5th column, etc), but the Russification of Crimea was against the Ottomans (Tartars), not endemic Ukrainians. The Russian Empire and Soviets actually have a lot in common with the USA in terms of displacing native populations, destroying cultures/languages, etc.
So how does this make Crimea Russian then?
I am pointing out from the top of my head, but in 2014 I've heard these top excuses for annexing Crimea:
1. Crimea was given to Soviet Ukraine, by Soviet Russia, thus Crimea is Russian and Russian Federation is taking it back, because they "suddenly realised" it was a mistake.
2. "Crimean people asked" for protection from "Ukrainian nazi junta" and they had "independent" vote on integrating themselves into Russia.
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How about Lithuanians should take over the Kaliningrad Oblast [0] as it was Minor Lithuania many years ago? Maybe Germans should come to the negotiations as it was territory of Prussia too?
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What's subjective there, though? If you go to Crimea and commit a crime (heh), you will be caught by Russian police and hauled before a Russian court. If you start in a point on Crimea and walk towards Kiev or vice versa, you will be stopped by military who will check if you are allowed to enter Ukraine or Russia respectively. We conclude that there is an international border between Crimea and Ukraine, and Crimea is…
It's not that simple. If you go to Crimea and commit a crime without getting arrested, and then travel to Ukraine and they find out, they will arrest you and try you under Ukrainian law. And if you try to cross the border from Crimea to Ukraine, the Ukrainian side will not ask you if you "want to enter Ukraine". They consider Crimea to be Ukrainian, so they'll treat you as somebody who is already on Ukrainian territo…
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But concepts like "Russian" and "Ukrainian" are time period specific. I think GP is saying that the area has been Russian-majority every since when the distinction between Russian and Ukrainian came into existence.
Distinction between Russians and Ukrainians started after rename of (Kievan) Russia into Ukraine in 1908, when delegates from whole Russia Empire made decision to change name, to move away from Moscow. After Soviet Revolution, Ukrainians started Great Ukrainization, with it peak in 1929. At it peak, 81 millions of Ukrainians (Russians) and 77 millions of Russians (Russish) were counted in 1926. This was perceived as…
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I actually agree with you (about propaganda, 5th column, etc), but the Russification of Crimea was against the Ottomans (Tartars), not endemic Ukrainians. The Russian Empire and Soviets actually have a lot in common with the USA in terms of displacing native populations, destroying cultures/languages, etc.
> .. but the Russification of Crimea was against the Ottomans (Tartars), not endemic Ukrainians. So how does this make Crimea Russian then? I am pointing out from the top of my head, but in 2014 I've heard these top excuses for annexing Crimea: 1. Crimea was given to Soviet Ukraine, by Soviet Russia, thus Crimea is Russian and Russian Federation is taking it back, because they "suddenly realised" it was a mistake. 2.…