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I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

nytimes.com

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Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#271

Post by tzs »

jlokier wrote: post #79
ChaosDegenerate wrote: post #28

Will these systems be prone to false data? I.e. if an organization fighting for free speech would create software generating false personas who create false messages, and other events, would they know any better? For example, it wouldn't be too hard to generate hundreds if not thousands of fake Facebook, Instragram, Airbnb, Coinbase, Uber, Gmail, Amazon, etc. accounts doing "stupid things". Like ordering stuff and ca…

Credit reference agencies are already prone to false data, and that's without anyone trying to game them. When I checked this year, 2 out of the 3 major CRAs in my country (Equifax, Experian) had: - An incorrect flag saying I was not registered to vote, and a note saying this significantly affected my credit rating. - A bogus address that didn't correspond to any physical location. Nor did it correspond with any addr…

> I could say so much more about the complaints process, terrible customer service in every conceivable way from Equifax specifically, and more, but it would be rather off-topic.

The only thing definitely wrong on mine is it lists an address that I've never lived at (and there is actually a decent reason for this mistake [1]). I looked at getting it fixed, but it looked like that would be a bit of a hassle, so I haven't bothered. I just have to remember if some site does one of those "which of these 5 address did you once live at?" kinds of test as part of identity verification, I need to pick that wrong address if it shows up.

[1]. (Names and addresses made up) A single women, Ms. Johnson, owned and lived in a house at 567 Fake Street. At some point, Ms. Johnson married Mr. Brown, and they lived together at 567 Fake Street as Mr. and Mrs. Brown. At some point another Mr. Brown, no relation to the Browns at 567 Fake Street, bought and moved into 527 Fake Street.

The Browns at 567 decided to move, and submitted a change of address form to the USPS. Someone processing that at the post office noticed that 567 was listed in their records as belonging to Ms. Johnson, but that there was a Brown at 527, and apparently concluded that it was probably the Brown at 527 who was moving and that he had just botched the address on the form, and so they processed this as a change of address for 527 Brown. Credit reporting agencies get change of address data, so they picked it up too.

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#272

Post by amelius »

hirundo wrote: post #159
amelius wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect we as a society need new legislation to deal with these sort of issues. Why not ban targeted advertising altogether?

Because it has value, both to the advertiser and to the target, compared to un-targeted advertising. Advertising is an attempt to transfer information. Targeted ads means that the information is more likely to be relevant, whatever its other downsides. Let's not throw out that baby with the bath water.

> Advertising is an attempt to transfer information.

If you want to inform me, just give me a website I can visit where I can enter my needs and provide perhaps some context information, and which deletes/forgets this information when I leave. There is no need AT ALL to figure this info out behind my back.

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#273

Post by IggleSniggle »

lisper wrote: post #181
Symmetry wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how the fact that the process of becoming a bank is strictly regulated means that it's corrupt?

It doesn't. What makes it corrupt is that banks are not in fact strictly regulated, it only appears that way. But there is no way I can prove that to you in an HN comment. I would have to write a book. I can point you to a lot of circumstantial evidence but there is nothing probative in the public record (see below). The only definitive evidence I have of the corruption in the system is my personal experience, some a…

Having joined academia at one point and seen "how the sausage is made," and subsequently left for ethical reasons that I have no way of using to hold anyone to account, I totally understand this comment.

It is so hard to put into words how these systems are corrupt, because these systems create an enculturation / religion around themselves. By the time you see how the entire system works, you are powerless to simplify the mechnications that make that system corrupt (if you even choose to recognize the corruption). You can't "just start an alternative," because the system exists at a local maxima and will crush your alternative or assimilate it into the existing system.

When people are taken advantage of by these secular religions, it is so normal and engrained in the societal fabric that we almost don't have the language to expose the fundamental dishonesty and fraud of these systems. Victims will say that there may be some bad actors at the edges, but on the whole, "this is the way it's supposed to be."

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#274

Post by neodymiumphish »

teh_infallible wrote: post #219
hirundo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it has value, both to the advertiser and to the target, compared to un-targeted advertising. Advertising is an attempt to transfer information. Targeted ads means that the information is more likely to be relevant, whatever its other downsides. Let's not throw out that baby with the bath water.

“Targeted advertising” is just a euphemism for the secretive creation and sale of dossiers on unwitting Internet users. It should already be illegal under existing laws.

In most cases, this isn't true. The dossiers and maintained very closely by Facebook, Google, etc in order to leverage their knowledge on a target to produce the most effective targeted ads. If they sold the dossiers, they would lose the continued revenue.

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#275

Post by earthboundkid »

cortesoft wrote: post #252
earthboundkid wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been done better in other countries and could be done better in the US if there were political will to do it. There's a whole universe of cryptographically signed certificates that we in the US don't use. The hard part is not signing a cert; it's making sure the certs are given to the correct people and having a procedure for when a cert is lost. Estonia has done this well; Korea has done this poorly. But it's…

Does that then make the cert a high value target? How do you get people to protect it and use it properly? If it is stolen, does it actually make it HARDER to prove you didn't open the credit line?

This is not a theoretical topic. Other countries have electronic signature system and you can evaluate how well or poorly they are implemented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_signatures_and_law

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#276

Post by lisper »

IggleSniggle wrote: post #273
lisper wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't. What makes it corrupt is that banks are not in fact strictly regulated, it only appears that way. But there is no way I can prove that to you in an HN comment. I would have to write a book. I can point you to a lot of circumstantial evidence but there is nothing probative in the public record (see below). The only definitive evidence I have of the corruption in the system is my personal experience, some a…

Having joined academia at one point and seen "how the sausage is made," and subsequently left for ethical reasons that I have no way of using to hold anyone to account, I totally understand this comment. It is so hard to put into words how these systems are corrupt, because these systems create an enculturation / religion around themselves. By the time you see how the entire system works, you are powerless to simplif…

Yes. Exactly.

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#277

Post by Rebelgecko »

tuukkah wrote: post #37
ChaosDegenerate wrote: post #28

Will these systems be prone to false data? I.e. if an organization fighting for free speech would create software generating false personas who create false messages, and other events, would they know any better? For example, it wouldn't be too hard to generate hundreds if not thousands of fake Facebook, Instragram, Airbnb, Coinbase, Uber, Gmail, Amazon, etc. accounts doing "stupid things". Like ordering stuff and ca…

Data from Google Pay and Apple Pay must be extremely valuable as it links your user account to actual physical purchases - expensive to fake those en masse.

When I went to check out the new Apple TV+, the fine print mentioned that my usage of the service was contingent on my "device trust score", which depends on various metrics like how often I use my device, how many emails I send, etc. Considering I was trying to sign up in a web browser, it was a surprise that Apple may be tracking these metrics for me. I wonder if people that don't own iDevices will get lower resolution streams due to a lower social credit—excuse me, "device trust"— score

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#278

Post by Accujack »

reggieband wrote: post #253

There is a scene at the beginning of the movie Brazil [1] where a literal bug falls into a tele-type, causes an error that starts a chain reaction that frames the events of the movie. The bug is a metaphor in the movie, just some nice visual story-telling to indicate how errors in automated processes can have unintended consequences. I honestly fear that entire lives will be ruined by AI systems mis-analyzing some da…

>As we automate everything this is inevitable.

Which is why it's important to ask the question "should we" instead of just "can we".

Even more important is not dividing people into groups that we treat differently. Everyone should have the same education, work, credit and health opportunities. If we can free ourselves from the desire to segregate and separate people in the name of progress, whether or not an "AI" guesses wrong about you is irrelevant.

It comes down to ego... people have to accept that no one can predict someone's potential or value to the world with enough certainty to make restricting people's opportunities worth it.

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#279

Post by phs318u »

reggieband wrote: post #253

There is a scene at the beginning of the movie Brazil [1] where a literal bug falls into a tele-type, causes an error that starts a chain reaction that frames the events of the movie. The bug is a metaphor in the movie, just some nice visual story-telling to indicate how errors in automated processes can have unintended consequences. I honestly fear that entire lives will be ruined by AI systems mis-analyzing some da…

We’re already seeing the impacts of these kinds of systems affecting many of the most vulnerable in the Australian community. I’m referring to the Dept. of Human Services’ punitive “robodebt” system.

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-03/centrelink-debt-co...

Re: I Got Access to My Secret Consumer Score

#280

Post by glofish »

lisper wrote: post #264
glofish wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the magnitude of it matters. Order a Big Mac - does it look like the ad? Probably not. Drink a Cola, does it feel like your life has turned around, probably not. is advertising dishonest - of course, but we all know that and we learned to deal with it. Is advertising corrupt, I would not say that. Thus for something to be truly corrupt it needs to go beyond a certain level of illegality. There are plenty of small ban…

> the magnitude of it matters. The cost to consumers of financial corruption runs into the many billions of dollars. > There are plenty of small banks and credit unions out there thus the point that you cannot open a bank is not quite valid. I did not say that you couldn't open a bank. I said that if you tried you would see firsthand evidence of the corruption of the system. The problem is not that the rules are oner…

> The problem is that the rules are not applied evenly and transparently.

Of course not. Never are, again you are not saying much here. Also with the billions of wasted dollars. Of course, but that is a natural consequence of dealing with immense scope - it is going to be very inefficient and stupid. Still a far cry from actual corruption.

I feel that people tossing around the word corruption don't really understand what it means and it is a hyperbole - only undercuts the message.

A bit like the Soup Nazi in Seinfeld - he is not really a nazi in any shape or form - don't even mention real nazis in the same context.

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