A neat idea! I think we could also get started now. Not necessarily de-escalating tech, but realizing that the fundamental supply of newer, more powerful chips might not last even with a shift to more plentiful supplies of rare-earth metals due to our need to get off of fossil fuels, fast. I think it might be useful in the more immediate term to be able to lock-in the minimum set of features that make the web and Int…
I think there is a business model for different reasons. As web client tech stabilizes and telecom regulatory rollback continues, there may be an opportunity for localized solutions to be landed for all sorts of different purposes.
Collapse OS
271–280 of 323 posts
Re: Collapse OS
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or you know, a laptop. I've got like 6 of them piling up dust and all they need is 19V. The oldest from 2008, the batteries on 3 have sadly failed being unused, everything else still works. I've also got 2 desktops from 2003ish (Athlon64 and Pentium III), they probably work, too, although they're stored in a garage (along with some other stuff like VCRs and CRT displays). Not to mention routers old and new, all runni…
> Or you know, a laptop. I've got like 6 of them piling up dust and all they need is 19V Mechanical parts fail first. The keyboards on those laptops will be gone after a few years of use. The USB ports won't last much longer. How long will the thermal paste and internal fans last? The point of the z80 is that they're cheap and relatively easy to build from scavenged parts.
And I'm also thinking more of a "repository of knowledge" use, not just simple controllers.
Re: Collapse OS
#273Re: Collapse OS
#274I don't think just developing a Z80 operating system is enough. The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. In agriculture, we have the doomsday seed vault [0] just for this purpose. If we anticipate collapse of the current economic system or society, I think we should build a doomsday computer vault, that keeps everything we need to rebuild the computing industry in a underground bunker. It keeps everything we need i…
> The whole ecosystem needs to be preserved. I disagree. If humanity collapses, and a new fledgling civilisation grows out of the ashes, then maybe we should let them follow their own path, and make their own discoveries and mistakes. It's massive hubris to assume that future generations can only survive if they have access to our knowledge. Many civilisations have fallen only to be replaced by newer betters ones, ev…
A collapse would be the perfect and likely sole opportunity to ditch the mistakes of the past and forge something completely new with the benefit of a "foresight" forged from hindsight.
Re: Collapse OS
#275With an 8080 equivalent running a serial character display terminal based on an oscilloscope CRT (1940s RADAR tech) you have an input/output device.
This leaves the main job of processing to another cpu, which could be 16-bit for arithmetic speed and efficiency. The late 70s, early 80s 8-bit machines were only underpowered because they were doing all of the video output using the same cpu. Separate computation from video generation and you get a much faster system.
8-bit cpus rarely needed an OS. They were really only capable of running single applications at a time. All an operating system does is separate hostile C code applications from each other. C is probably not the best starting point to reboot society using 8-bit systems.
Forth, or some derivative might be better. Charles Moore's original 1968 listings for Forth on an IBM 1130 are available from here: https://github.com/ForthHub/discussion/issues/63
Remember also that every mid-1970s microprocessor generally relied on a minicomputer (built from TTL) for its software and logic design. If you go back 10 years (1965) to the PDP-8 minicomputer, these were built from diode-transistor logic or DTL - made from discrete diodes, transistors, resistors and capacitors. This sort of technology could possibly be re-booted more easily for post-apocalypse society.
The original 12 bit PDP-8 contained 10,148 diodes, 1409 transistors, 5615 resistors, and 1674 capacitors. See- https://www.pdp8.net/straight8/functional_restore.shtml
Scale these figures by 1.33 and you have the approximate requirements for a 16-bit architecture.
Whilst over 50 years old, the PDP-8 could run BASIC at speeds not too dissimilar to the early 8-bit micros that appeared in 1976 - about 10 years later.
It used a modular construction - and if you did find yourself with an excess of diodes and transistors, the best approach might be to build a series of logic modules - loosely based on the 7400 series, but using DTL for simplicity. If you were to standardise on a footprint similar to a 40 pin DIP, you could probably recreate about 8 NAND gates in such a device.
Some years ago I looked at the NAND to Tetris cpu, and worked out a bitslice design based entirely on 2-input NANDs. Each bitslice needed 80 NANDs, so a 16-bit machine would need 1280 gates. Memory would be difficult, but something could be implemented using shift registers. You could of course revert back to storing charge on a CRT screen - which formed the basis of the 1K words of memory on the Manchester Baby machine of 1949 (Williams Tube).
Finally - never underestimate audio frequency generation, and storing signals as audio tones - something that cpus are good at. Possibly use a rotating magnetic drum for storage.
In the summer of 1984 - a friend and I, who both owned Sinclair ZX81s set up a 1-way data link between one machine and the other across our college dorms - using a FM transmitter bug and an FM radio receiver - over a distance of 300 feet.
Re: Collapse OS
#276So, let me see if I understand this correctly: this is supposed to run on z80-based computers after an armageddon comes and all the other "modern" computers are out of business, so people start building them by scavenging parts. Ok. So, first of all, how are you supposed to download this thing onto your homebrew computer, given that internet will most likely be down? "But if the collapse magnitude is right, then this…
Re: Collapse OS
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It takes a civilisation to build an iPhone. The point here is that we don't need to build an iPhone, we only need a radio. Building a 8080 is much simpler, the USSR did it, the East Germany did it, China did it, all around the same time without too much difficulty. It's certainly would be much more difficult if the current civilization collapsed, but I think the author doesn't anticipate a total collapse, just a br…
> breakdown of the current economic system As the author themselves admits, this requires a very narrow band of Goldilocks catastrophe. Not catastrophic enough that you still have electricity, but catastrophic enough that all the plants on this list are destroyed or rendered unusable or embargoed from you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat... How is that going to work exactly? No, it's a fa…
All the fabs on your list are fairly modern, and it is easy to see how they would be impossible to maintain in a Tainter-style collapse.
I would be looking into what you can do with ~1 um processes, which are currently accessible to amateurs. E.g. designs like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11720289
Re: Collapse OS
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I suspect the argument against modern Intel chips is just their complexity. Well that, and the fact that we already have plenty of OSes to run on x86(-64). Looking at arch/ in linux's source: alpha avr32 frv Kconfig microblaze openrisc score um arc blackfin h8300 m32r mips parisc sh unicore32 arm c6x hexagon m68k mn10300 powerpc sparc x86 arm64 cris ia64 metag nios2 s390 tile xtensa I'm surprised that it doesn't ha…
No 6502, either. There aren't many 8 bit CPUs that are considered a reasonable platform for any UNIX. Which is why I think I'd prefer 68000 family. It's "modern enough" to use with modern compilers and operating systems, but simple enough for a one man garage shop to build/maintain a computer that uses it. I guess earlier 80x86 chips could fit that bill, too, but 68000 has a better assembly language.
The was only introduced with the 68030, which is roughly analagous and contemporaneous with the Intel 80386.
The 68040 added an onboard FPU, like the 80486. (And like the 486SX, the 68040EC had the onboard FPU removed again.)
Re: Collapse OS
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, no. I can’t believe it’s gotten this bad. I’m amazed we haven’t done much in the way of climate change control. It’s going to be too late very, very soon.
> It’s going to be too late very, very soon. Sorry to ruin this for you, but it is already too late. We are already in the process of damage control.
"it's too late" is a dangerous statement because it suggests actions no longer matter. And if no action is taken, several climate models project >4 °C average warming. The majority of the planet will be become uninhabitable at the current human density levels, with billions of people having to relocate and/or die.
Re: Collapse OS
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Or you know, a laptop. I've got like 6 of them piling up dust and all they need is 19V Mechanical parts fail first. The keyboards on those laptops will be gone after a few years of use. The USB ports won't last much longer. How long will the thermal paste and internal fans last? The point of the z80 is that they're cheap and relatively easy to build from scavenged parts.
Not sure where you scavenge parts for a z80, I think it's much easier to scavenge parts for PCs. Plus, laptops are way more fixable than you seem to think, with simple soldering. Fans can be kept going for years with grease. External keyboards are ubiquitous. It's strange how people here bang on about RPi when a simple laptop is even more flexible. And I'm also thinking more of a "repository of knowledge" use, not ju…
TI calculators, microcontrollers, and more:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_Z80#Embedded_systems_and...
> I think it's much easier to scavenge parts for PCs. Plus, laptops are way more fixable than you seem to think, with simple soldering. Fans can be kept going for years with grease.
Collapse OS is talking about timelines of a century or more. Non-mechanical computers are the only ones that will last that long without the supporting infrastructure.