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Richard M. Stallman resigns

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Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#271

Post by mtrower »

lizzard wrote: post #244
naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

"Taboos" is an oddly mild way to put this. Why shouldn't a person who approves of raping children have to pause and consider "staying quiet" one wonders.

Please read Richard's actual words again. Read them carefully --- and read his actual words, not just someone summarizing them or stitching fragments out of context. Richard said no such thing.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#272

Post by rrss »

Eh, stallman's career was basically always about pontificating from his moral high ground. Makes a lot of sense to me for him to step off the pulpit when he expresses himself so poorly, has so many people complaining about his super-cringe behavior towards women for the last 3 decades, and becomes infamous as the "is it really ok to refer to statutory rape as 'assault', or does that give people the wrong idea" guy.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#273

Post by davidcuddeback »

bad_user wrote: post #252
naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

This has nothing to do with technology. If you start expressing opinions about how sex with a sex-trafficked child should be legal, won't your friends and family raise some questions about your character? Unless we're talking of morally flexible individuals. And at least parents should raise an eyebrow, since we have this natural reaction to protect our children. > information wants to be free Whomever said that was…

>> information wants to be free

> Whomever said that was probably thinking of facts, of knowledge, s/he was probably not thinking of having opinions about pedophiles.

John Stuart Mill is probably rolling over in his grave from this conversation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty#Of_the_liberty_of_t...

Edit: Particularly relevant to the topic of self-censorship: "unmeasured vituperation, enforced on the side of prevailing opinion, deters people from expressing contrary opinion, and from listening to those who express them."

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#274

Post by roguecoder »

iamnothere wrote: post #43

RMS was defending Minsky, awkwardly. As someone who has a history of social awkwardness, he should be forgiven for this. He's been a good steward of the FSF, which has doing important work in the service of free (read: non-backdoored) hardware lately. I know there are good people still at the FSF, but I can only hope they are as incorruptible and dogged as RMS. The way this attack came suddenly out of the depths make…

A history of bad behavior isn’t a reason to excuse bad behavior: it is a reason not to excuse bad behavior because the person has had many chances to change that behavior and decided not to.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#275

Post by js8 »

snowwrestler wrote: post #242
naringas wrote: post #114

it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. Having the wrong opinion about certain topics is getting more expensive. Stay away from taboos or else... never mind the fact that what we regard as wrong changes across different societies over time. Weirdly all the informa…

> it's rather interesting how all the information technology (social media, etc...) is slowly moving our culture towards increasing self-censorship. It's not. Take it from me, a guy who predates social media by decades. If you go back and look at what Gary Hart dropped out of the 1988 presidential race for, and compare it to what Donald Trump said on social media before, during, and after being elected President, the…

It's an interesting dynamic. I would agree that on the whole, you're probably correct that there is less censorship in the society.

However, it seems that the political division is greater than ever. It is almost as if there are two Overton windows now, one for liberals and one for republicans (roughly).

The republican one shifted to much less self-censorship, while the liberal one shifted very slightly to more self-censorship.

And RMS seems to be caught in the liberal one. He has held his opinions for a long time, and nobody really cared that much.

He is also not a particularly powerful figure. If anything, FSF is weaker than it has been in the 90s. That's also an interesting change in dynamics, the shifting of both windows now affects powerful and powerless alike, where in the past, it was I believe considered less decent to have "wrong opinions" if you were powerful, and the wrong opinions of the powerless were tolerated much more. (Basically, the difference between elites and proletes, and agreement who is what, is now morphing into a difference between liberals and republicans.)

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#276

Post by mattst88 »

accntwithnoname wrote: post #178
robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

This wasn't a witch hunt. This should have happened a long time ago. He is a creep, and has been problematic for years. “He literally used to have a mattress on the floor of his office. He kept the door to his office open, to proudly showcase that mattress and all the implications that went with it. Many female students avoided the corridor with his office for that reason…I was one of the course 6 undergrads who avoi…

Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't understand what the "implications" are. Someone clear up the meaning for me?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#278

Post by robocat »

accntwithnoname wrote: post #178
robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

This wasn't a witch hunt. This should have happened a long time ago. He is a creep, and has been problematic for years. “He literally used to have a mattress on the floor of his office. He kept the door to his office open, to proudly showcase that mattress and all the implications that went with it. Many female students avoided the corridor with his office for that reason…I was one of the course 6 undergrads who avoi…

I think that targeting a "creepy" social misfit is one definition of a witch hunt.

We can mostly defend against men that give out creepy social cues. Guys that are not creepy are far harder to defend against or get justice against: a guy that knows how to present himself understands social signals (almost self defining) and they can often get away with a lot because of that.

Plenty of guys hit on young women (I saw a study that showed that men of any age say they want a 21 year old). Are we surprised to find out "teen" is a major keyword on porn sites? Many men with a social standing (or money) use that to their sexual advantage. Go to the pub and listen to some drunk bro's: there is a large number what a lot of men say is extremely disturbing. I think they are highly immoral; but the attitudes are common and we usually avoid the moral argument and simplify it with a legal argument (statutory rape laws which rightly protect our weak and vulnerable).

I don't doubt that RMS has been an arsehole, and his workplace, voluntary workplaces, friends, family and acquaintances should definitely make him accountable, and take action against arseholery.

However, what seems to be happening here is that Richard is getting publicly shamed and publicly tried and judged guilty for being creepy - no accountability required.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#279

Post by armitron »

rosser wrote: post #97

I find the volume of the noise being made over whether or not the "entirely willing" bit was quoted out of context by the media for sensationalist purposes — which it 100% was — quite curious. To me, the place Stallman screwed up was in trying to quibble over terms in defense of a man who we have reason to believe had sex with an woman of an age in a jurisdiction where that might have constituted rape. Because that's…

> the place Stallman screwed up was in trying to quibble over terms in defense of a man who we have reason to believe had sex with an woman of an age in a jurisdiction where that might have constituted rape.

This is where you jump to conclusions and become a part of this charade. All we have are unsubstantiated allegations that do not even say definitively that sex took place. And just based on that, your and the mob's conclusion is "we have reason to believe" ?

I agree with Stallman and everyone else who is extremely skeptical and advises caution. Alas, the mob is out for blood.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#280

Post by asciimo »

2_listerine_pls wrote: post #268
bad_user wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with technology. If you start expressing opinions about how sex with a sex-trafficked child should be legal, won't your friends and family raise some questions about your character? Unless we're talking of morally flexible individuals. And at least parents should raise an eyebrow, since we have this natural reaction to protect our children. > information wants to be free Whomever said that was…

You are twisting what Stallman said. -He argued that rape is no the same as having sex with a minor. He is right, that's not the definition of rape. -A minor is not necessarily a child. You can be a minor and the next day be 18 in a porno movie. -Never did Stallman said it was ok, He just raised the question whether Minsky knew She was being coerced by Epstein. Clearly not the same.

I hear this argument exclusively from adults.
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