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Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

stallman.org

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Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#271

Post by nullc »

mcguire wrote: post #190
mjevans wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am speculating about your specific question; NOT any specific real circumstances. Which of these three seems more likely in GENERAL: A) That this happened on a party island and all adults were willing. B) That someone has been lead to believe this is a consensual act on some party island with willing people there; but in reality the victim is coerced into presenting false consent. C) That the 'active offender' is a…

Wait. I've lost track of something somewhere. What was Minski doing on Epstein's party island?

> What was Minski doing on Epstein's party island?

Epstein hosted conferences on a number of occasions for scientific luminaries, which is why-- for example-- there are pictures of Stephen Hawking on Epstein's island.

Minsky was involved in an AI conference held by Epstein in 2002.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#272

Post by wowaname »

harry8 wrote: post #48
perardi wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am sure this will destroy an institution with a $16,000,000,000 endowment. Perhaps you should step up, donate, give them a comfortable nest egg so they don’t feel the need to take donations from a convicted sex offender. They are obviously that hard up for cash.

Can't see the flagged comment that this is a response to but what you've said looks entirely reasonable with one, pretty minor, caveat. I've not yet met the academic securing grants and funding who would not have preferred it if exactly none of their time was required to do that. However wealthy the institution. Maybe some enjoy it and prefer it to research? Being the big, important, person hobnobbing with the rich a…

[Just a note that you can set "showdead" to "yes" in settings to toggle flagged comments]

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#273

Post by roywiggins »

azernik wrote: post #253
partialrecall wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Stallman is tactless, and I've thought that for years. That email didn't change anything I thought about him. I also think that being tactless is not a moral crime. It's aesthetically offensive and counterproductive from a leadership perspective, but being a bad leader doesn't make somebody a bad person.

Saying that Minsky having sex with underage girls would be morally okay is more than tactless - it is immoral.

His argument in this specific email- as I read it- was a variant of "Your Honor, I had no idea she wasn't willing and 18!" ie that Minsky didn't know and must therefore have been blameless.

I think it's an immoral argument too- Minsky should have known something was going on, and would be culpable. And it's very possible he did know.

But paired with RMS' prior pedophilia apologia, the combination is horrendous.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#275

Post by azernik »

nullc wrote: post #267
azernik wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget the prostitution issue. A 15-year-old cannot consent to sex with an adult. Period.

Where did 15 year olds come into the discussion related to Minsky? The person in question was born in 1983 and the events in question were in 2002 (or potentially 2001 if there were multiple incidents, but not prior). Maybe your confusion is because the age of consent is 16 in Massachusetts?

My mistake, the Stallman e-mail referred to 17-year-olds, not to 15-year-olds.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#276

Post by azernik »

roywiggins wrote: post #273
azernik wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that Minsky having sex with underage girls would be morally okay is more than tactless - it is immoral.

His argument in this specific email- as I read it- was a variant of "Your Honor, I had no idea she wasn't willing and 18!" ie that Minsky didn't know and must therefore have been blameless. I think it's an immoral argument too- Minsky should have known something was going on, and would be culpable. And it's very possible he did know. But paired with RMS' prior pedophilia apologia, the combination is horrendous.

In the later e-mail, he argues that even if he knew that she was underage, it shouldn't be considered rape.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#277

Post by roywiggins »

azernik wrote: post #276
roywiggins wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His argument in this specific email- as I read it- was a variant of "Your Honor, I had no idea she wasn't willing and 18!" ie that Minsky didn't know and must therefore have been blameless. I think it's an immoral argument too- Minsky should have known something was going on, and would be culpable. And it's very possible he did know. But paired with RMS' prior pedophilia apologia, the combination is horrendous.

In the later e-mail, he argues that even if he knew that she was underage, it shouldn't be considered rape.

I hadn't seen that the entire email thread was published. I don't have time to read it now, but I'm hardly surprised, so I stand corrected.

This fucking guy.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#278

Post by mindslight »

zenhack wrote: post #174

Something that I think most folks in this thread are missing, that's hugely important to what actually happened here: This was not an isolated incident. If it were, I'd look at his comments and write it off as his usual tendency to jump on a minor point and derail a conversation with some totally pedantic technicallity, and I do think the thing he actually said in this case has been wildly mis-interpreted and oversta…

> I kinda have the same somewhat fearful gut reaction to these kinds of episodes as a lot of geeky guys do. There's a post[1] out there (which I think originally I found through hacker news) that does a pretty good job of analyzing where that reaction is coming from, and why the fear isn't totally illegitimate

Considering a guy just lost two positions, one of them his life's work, for speaking incorrect opinions and being awkward with women, I would say that fear is quite legitimate!

Thank you for posting that link, because rereading it puts this whole clusterfuck in context.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#279

Post by zenhack »

mindslight wrote: post #278
zenhack wrote: post #174

Something that I think most folks in this thread are missing, that's hugely important to what actually happened here: This was not an isolated incident. If it were, I'd look at his comments and write it off as his usual tendency to jump on a minor point and derail a conversation with some totally pedantic technicallity, and I do think the thing he actually said in this case has been wildly mis-interpreted and oversta…

> I kinda have the same somewhat fearful gut reaction to these kinds of episodes as a lot of geeky guys do. There's a post[1] out there (which I think originally I found through hacker news) that does a pretty good job of analyzing where that reaction is coming from, and why the fear isn't totally illegitimate Considering a guy just lost two positions, one of them his life's work, for speaking incorrect opinions and…

Yeah, I really like that article; it articulates a part of the social dynamic that I just don't see talked about enough.

But given the sheer scale of screwups here, the number of people's affected, while I have some sympathy for stallman, ultimately I think this one really is his fault -- it's one thing to make some social gaffes now and then. It's another to actively contribute to a toxic enviornment for longer than I've been alive, to be in the public eye enough that there's no way you're not getting an earful about it from time to time, and at no point sit down and read through some of the arguments about this and consider if maybe there's something you're doing that is maybe a problem.

Again, I have some sympathy (empathy, even; I'm no stranger to being the awkward aspie guy), but there's a limit to how much you can lean on that as an excuse.

I do think angry-mob-accountability is not a very good way to deal with problems, but part of the trouble is people are going to this because the usual channels have failed them. I the way through this is to put in place systems of accountability that actually work so a civilized way of dealing with problems is even possible.

Re: Richard Stallman resigns from CSAIL at MIT

#280

Post by kelnos »

darawk wrote: post #126
geofft wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's weird to me that being considered a "defender of X" could even be a bad thing. That's the process by which we collectively make decisions, it's the basis behind stuff like fair trials for example; the lawyer acting for a defendant is not a bad person. Except that in fair trials we have the concept of stare decisis , that once something has been decided, it's been decided. We very intentionally do not have the…

> The arguments Stallman presented were hardly arguments and were not novel at all. You think that Minsky being unaware of the coercion would not be a mitigating factor in accusing him of sexual assault? When was that decided?

I think that the idea that Minsky was unaware (or at least had no suspicions of) coercion is highly suspect, and a bit naive.

Powerful billionaire brings you to his private island and presents a beautiful young woman to you who appears ready and willing to have sex with you, a 75-year-old man.

Is that ever credible, even in a porno?

For Stallman to push this "Minsky didn't know" narrative now, with no horse in the race, and Minsky having passed away 3 years ago, is beyond the pale. I get the idea of trying to defend the reputation of your dead friend, but... c'mon. It's not the time or the place, and Stallman should know better after decades of being "misunderstood".

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