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Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

latimes.com

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Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#271

Post by pas »

markus_zhang wrote: post #52
Mikeb85 wrote: post #30

I think a lot of people who were born in the west don't understand that, when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom. After all, having money (or not) affects what you can or cannot do far more than whoever's in charge. Chinese people today have lived through an economic miracle. If I lived there I doubt I'd criticize their system, especially considering people still can remember…

Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.

It's difficult, but ironically the real enemy of every large developing nation is its own populism/chauvinism.

When the young ruling elite encounters a crisis, a real problem, often they see that doing it in a transparent and equitable way would only serve as gunpowder for their detractors. Hence the very fast descent into totalitarianism.

And it's no wonder the real crisis of every regime is not some natural disaster, or economic collapse... no, in large nation states the game is entirely about the meta level, the power, and how to keep it, how to distribute it. Naturally this leads to the aforementioned populism/nationalism/etc.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#272

Post by Joakal »

pimmen wrote: post #255
markus_zhang wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I pretty much agree with you. It's very difficult to rule a large country as China and Chinese people generally respect that. Also like you said, the failure of those color revolutions just showed other people how important stable is.

I've never understood then why the Chinese are against democracy. If everyone is happy and can't imagine a better government wouldn't they just elect the CCP every time?

Maybe not all, but Chinese people want democracy. There's one case of a village that elected their own leaders in China. See Hong Kong, Tienanmen Square Massacre, Wukan Democracy experiment (Mainland Chinese) or Taiwan (ROC/CCP say Taiwan is part of China).

But you will find that CCP insists on having the last say. Imagine electing Trump and Walmart CEO says we won't support the plan to build USA-Mexico wall. Trump says ok.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#273

Post by factsaresacred »

jialutu wrote: post #256

I have lived in the UK for over 20 years since I was 8, and I have to say I don't understand the Hong Kong riots. For starters, does any of you even know how it all started? The extradition bill? To do what? To extradite a Hong Kong teen that killed his pregnant girlfriend in Taiwan so he can be prosecuted there, at the request of Taiwan! I don't ever see that mentioned anywhere. Let me say, this video absolutely ril…

> The extradition bill? To do what? To extradite a Hong Kong teen that killed his pregnant girlfriend in Taiwan so he can be prosecuted there

You're being disingenuous. The extradition bill is ostensibly about that case but here's the reality: the bill would allow Hongkongers to be extradited to mainland China, where the legal system is a joke.

The prospect of being arrested in HK and shipped to authoritarian China is completely untenable.

Chinese agents have already being kidnapping and 'disappearing' Hong Kong dissidents. This would legalise and streamline the process.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#274

Post by pas »

peteretep wrote: post #156
jdietrich wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>when you're very poor, economic circumstances matter more than political freedom It's more than that. Back in the 70s, Westerners could very easily make the case that the USSR was corrupt, inefficient, hopelessly backwards and fundamentally organised in the interests of the state rather than the people. The evidence was abundant, even to Soviet citizens; any possible defence of the Soviet system was predicated on bl…

> but a Chinese citizen could quite legitimately make the case that their system is superior to Western democracy on a pragmatic level It is even easier to look at India, where the putative democracy the country has has not led to any kind of economic miracle for the poor.

One success/failure story does not mean much.

There are a lot of studies about how economic prosperity and democracy/liberalism went hand in hand in a lot of countries. And there are outliers, and the studies can be questioned, and so on.

China rented out its workforce and a relatively enlightened but autocratic leadership made sure it works, they make a lot of money, and that they reinvest that.

India never had such a strong leadership. They probably spent a lot of time and energy just doing what other multi-party democracies do, squibble, play the politics game, and so on.

Also, don't forget how India slowly started to get rid of the caste system and other deep rooted inequality problems, similarly grassroots efforts to curb corruption progressed through the various courts and legislatures.

China spent no time with such sentimental stuff.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#275

Post by tomohawk »

The goal of every fascist regime such as the CCP is to perpetuate itself, and to do that it must indoctrinate the population against their own best interests. It must make them think that the state is the important thing.

In China, Mao starved tens of millions to death because they had the 'wrong' ideas in their heads, and the expedient thing to do was to get rid of them while indoctrinating a new generation.

And lo and behold, those that lived through Mao's predations now see what they believe to be a miracle that things are so much better now, as long as they knuckle under to the CCP.

They could have been better without all of the killing and suppression. Those things were only necessary for the preservation of the CCP.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#276

Post by learn_to_read »

jialutu wrote: post #262
president wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying you're wrong but you're way too confident on your stance when most people don't even have all the facts aside from cherry-picked bits from biased media (regardless of side). I have been following the protests since the beginning and I seem to remember things were peaceful until bad actors (violent police and hired thugs) came into the picture. There has also been evidence of false flag operations so how wo…

Hired thugs? I assume you mean in Yuen Long right? Here is my question, do you know where Yuen Long is? It's quite far out of the city of Hong Kong (I mean the name has far in it). So the story goes that the "protesters" went there to do what exactly, and then got beaten up right? So why were they so far out in the first place? Since it's quite far out of the city center, do you really think someone can quickly pay t…

It is far but some protesters actually live in Yuen Long. There was a large protest in Victoria Park happened earlier in the same day. After the peaceful protest, they went home and found themselves trapped by the white shirted locals.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#277

Post by pas »

ci5er wrote: post #92
appleiigs wrote: post #27

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

> I bet most of my beliefs are baloney too, but I have no idea which ones they are. This is waaay off thread-topic, but this is very very important to recognize and learn to internalize at deeper levels that you probably recognize. I just wanted you to know that I know that you just made a very important first step (and it never stops).

Skepticism, indeed, should be more common.

Unfortunately a lot of people fall through into some conspiracy black hole.

The proper way to look at this is of course the rationalist/epistemological framework of belief updates (which is better called model fitting).

Skepticism is not just doubting everything, it's trying to find the model of the world that consistently maximally fits the data/observations/experiences.

China doing brainwashing is consistent, but the moon landing was a hoax is not. (Because that model in which everything is a hoax and the deep state is controlling everything is too simple, so it's useless, kind of like Pascal's wager without the afterlife part.)

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#278

Post by pas »

codeswap wrote: post #59
appleiigs wrote: post #27

I had a similar experience chatting to my former coworker (who moved recently from China) regarding Taiwan. I said Taiwan is pretty much an independent country given it has it's own currency, military and democratic government. She looked at me like I was telling her the earth was flat. She was smart and good natured, and didn't have any opposing reasons, but she insisted Taiwan was simply another province of China.…

To be fair "Taiwan simply another province of China." is the official positive of the Taiwan government also

But they also officially state that all the other provinces are currently being occupied by the PRC.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#279

Post by thewileyone »

I could understand Hong Kong protesting to stop extradition of Hong Kong residents by Beijing because it could open too many doors. However, the original extradition request was for a murder suspect to be extradited to Taiwan, which I don't see anything wrong it.

Now, they've gotten the extradition rescinded, what else are they protesting for? That's the real question that the protesters are not answering. It's almost as if they're protesting for the sake of it. I think there's foreign influence involved because a pain for China is good for others, like a orange-tanned person I don't have to name.

All-in-all, with the world watching, China won't commit another Tiananmen. What they will do is to squeeze Hong Kong dry of business and money and leave it as just another backwater city.

Re: Why so many Chinese students can’t understand the Hong Kong protests

#280

Post by jplayer01 »

age_of_stone wrote: post #246
lsiebert wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think highly talented and bright people can still be fed wrong information an come to the wrong conclusions. I think it's important to remember that the protesters began protesting in reaction to China's actions. Protesters are just ordinary people, and it's wrong to hold every protestor accountable to the actions of a tiny minority. China however is a single united and sovereign government; it's actions can't be s…

China didn't take any actions before the protest. It is Hong Kong government that proposed the new law. just fyi for making a valid cause.

> It is Hong Kong government that proposed the new law.

A government which is effectively a mouthpiece for the CCP (and has increasingly become so since '97). People aren't protesting China out of nowhere. It's because China has been closing its grip on HK's political process for years now. Are you really trying to say with a straight face that the extradition bill to China has nothing to do with China and its influence on the HK government?

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