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Libra, 2 Weeks In

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Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#271

Post by democracy »

gridlockd wrote: post #261
democracy wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we call a "cryptocurrency" must be decentralised otherwise it is a Paypal version X. Ripple is 100% centralised by the way.

Who is "we"? Ripple (or rather XRP, which I referred to as "Ripple") is widely referred to as cryptocurrency. It uses a distributed ledger and cryptography, like a cryptocurrency. It is traded on cryptocurrency exchanges and can be sent/received like a cryptocurrency (requiring no account registration like Paypal). Also, like most cryptocurrency it is backed by nothing and its price fluctuates and moves along with br…

If it is not decentralised it defies the whole point of the solution. You then don't need a distributed decentralised network of independent transaction validators aka miners. You don't need any blockchain solution for it all. You can as well stick with MySQL and call it PayPal v2. Paypal also uses a lot of "cryptography" in its solutions but it doesn't make it a cryptocurrency. How many validation nodes are there in ripple? Less than a hundred. Can someone with bad intention and CPU power overtake it? No. It is a payment solution that is using parts of bitcoin ideas for no reason, really, rather than making quick cash on the hype.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#272

Post by roel_v »

harperlee wrote: post #209
roel_v wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"all non cash transactions. Which you kind of have to do to with any sizeable quantity of money (say over 100k)" Sort of related, in the Netherlands, we will soon (2 years or so) have a ban on cash transaction of more than 3000 euros. Not to one-up, just saying that it's happening. To be fair, I contribute to this by doing pretty much all payments electronically. Just like I contribute to local bookstores disappearin…

Does that ban apply to to individuals, though, or only companies? In the European countries I know of, it’s the latter.

From what I understand, all transactions. It's very hard to enforce between individuals, of course.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#273

Post by gridlockd »

democracy wrote: post #271
gridlockd wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "we"? Ripple (or rather XRP, which I referred to as "Ripple") is widely referred to as cryptocurrency. It uses a distributed ledger and cryptography, like a cryptocurrency. It is traded on cryptocurrency exchanges and can be sent/received like a cryptocurrency (requiring no account registration like Paypal). Also, like most cryptocurrency it is backed by nothing and its price fluctuates and moves along with br…

If it is not decentralised it defies the whole point of the solution. You then don't need a distributed decentralised network of independent transaction validators aka miners. You don't need any blockchain solution for it all. You can as well stick with MySQL and call it PayPal v2. Paypal also uses a lot of "cryptography" in its solutions but it doesn't make it a cryptocurrency. How many validation nodes are there in…

Fundamentally I think both XRP and Bitcoin are equally worthless tokens with little practical use. However, XRP at least doesn't waste a huge amount of electricity in the process of sending those tokens around - and it does so instantly. That's a consequence of not being fully decentralized and trustless. Another consequence is that it isn't vulnerable to a 51% attack or a 33% attack.

Of course the market says both of these tokens are worth billions in market cap. It treats it exactly like a cryptocurrency, feeding on the cryptocurrency hype. Clearly the market doesn't value decentralization to the point where XRP is shunned.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#274

Post by damnyou »

democracy wrote: post #271
gridlockd wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "we"? Ripple (or rather XRP, which I referred to as "Ripple") is widely referred to as cryptocurrency. It uses a distributed ledger and cryptography, like a cryptocurrency. It is traded on cryptocurrency exchanges and can be sent/received like a cryptocurrency (requiring no account registration like Paypal). Also, like most cryptocurrency it is backed by nothing and its price fluctuates and moves along with br…

If it is not decentralised it defies the whole point of the solution. You then don't need a distributed decentralised network of independent transaction validators aka miners. You don't need any blockchain solution for it all. You can as well stick with MySQL and call it PayPal v2. Paypal also uses a lot of "cryptography" in its solutions but it doesn't make it a cryptocurrency. How many validation nodes are there in…

There are no decentralized cryptocurrencies.

A decentralized cryptocurrency would not reward economies of scale the way Bitcoin does.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#275

Post by Lucadg »

Lucadg wrote: post #127

This is the part where they reveal how they plan to negotiate with regulators: "At the core, we believe that a network that helps move more cash transactions — where a lot of illicit activities happen — to a digital network that features regulated on and off ramps with proper know-your-customer (KYC) practices, combined with the ability for law enforcement and regulators to conduct their own analysis of on-chain acti…

I made this video today on the subject. It's an analysis of the Facebook post linked in the parent. https://youtu.be/1BVXc3jUsSU

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#276

Post by democracy »

gridlockd wrote: post #273
democracy wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is not decentralised it defies the whole point of the solution. You then don't need a distributed decentralised network of independent transaction validators aka miners. You don't need any blockchain solution for it all. You can as well stick with MySQL and call it PayPal v2. Paypal also uses a lot of "cryptography" in its solutions but it doesn't make it a cryptocurrency. How many validation nodes are there in…

Fundamentally I think both XRP and Bitcoin are equally worthless tokens with little practical use. However, XRP at least doesn't waste a huge amount of electricity in the process of sending those tokens around - and it does so instantly . That's a consequence of not being fully decentralized and trustless. Another consequence is that it isn't vulnerable to a 51% attack or a 33% attack. Of course the market says both…

Of course it is instant - any centralised payment solution is instant as they live in a a zoo rather than a jungle. That's what I'm saying, Ripple looks like a duck but is not a duck, it has some features of a cryptocurrency but lacks the core one - decentralisation. Also its blockchain is screwed - initial 30k transaction or so are lost. And on a personal level I dislike this company as I was constantly removed from their channels asking why their escrow in 2017 hold more coins than their total supply. They couldn't even get it right. D. Schwartz is probably a decent programmer, and I sort of admire how they became rich by building a lame replica of an expensive watch (bitcoin) - I read all of his posts on bitcoin stackexchange some time ago while learning about the industry...

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#277

Post by teekert »

stronglikedan wrote: post #236
teekert wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Netherlands (or the EU) banking is sort of changing, we have some Fintech companies moving into the space (bunq, revolut, N26). I'm a customer at bunq and they are a breath of fresh air, I can: * Have 25 separated accounts or savings goals * Share any bank account (or savings goal) with anyone (using bunq) * On the fly couple my passes to any of the accounts * Use NFC on my Android phone to pay * Have a websit…

That's all well and good, but can you also anonymously buy some blow with cash when you want to party?

I understand the argument. I guess cash has a usecase where the law is meddling with things it shouldn't.

But there is btc and qr code scanning. I'm not saying we should ditch cash entirely.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#278

Post by tanseydavid »

beefield wrote: post #208
Lucadg wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. This is exactly the problem with non cash transactions. Every single transaction, no matter how small, is recorded forever and shared with several governments and secret services. I never signed up for this. This is why we need cash and why they are fighting it.

The problem with cash is that it prohibits sensible monetary policy in certain situations (i.e. negative interest rates). So instead of cash we would need anonymous physical (and digital) tokens whose value is not fixed, but is adjusted according to the interest rates. I guess main problem is that to a very good approximation nobody wants these. Generally, the ones understanding monetary policy don't understand the n…

It astonishes me that you refer to Negative Interest Rates as "sensible monetary policy."

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#279

Post by gridlockd »

democracy wrote: post #276
gridlockd wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fundamentally I think both XRP and Bitcoin are equally worthless tokens with little practical use. However, XRP at least doesn't waste a huge amount of electricity in the process of sending those tokens around - and it does so instantly . That's a consequence of not being fully decentralized and trustless. Another consequence is that it isn't vulnerable to a 51% attack or a 33% attack. Of course the market says both…

Of course it is instant - any centralised payment solution is instant as they live in a a zoo rather than a jungle. That's what I'm saying, Ripple looks like a duck but is not a duck, it has some features of a cryptocurrency but lacks the core one - decentralisation. Also its blockchain is screwed - initial 30k transaction or so are lost. And on a personal level I dislike this company as I was constantly removed from…

XRP (or Libra) has decentralization, just not in a form that is accessible to the general public, because that brings in all sorts of other issues.

If you look at how we generally solve problems in the world, the idea that the untrusted general public should be involved as a matter of principle is ludicrous, because that requires significant defenses against bad actors at multiple levels.

Bitcoin didn't even solve this problem, it just raised the economic barrier for bad actors to cause trouble. In practice, many smaller cryptocurrencies are highly vulnerable to 51% attacks, but even Bitcoin mining power is highly centralized to a few companies.

I think the way XRP or Libra solve things (in principle) has very strong arguments going for it, but they are pragmatic, not idealistic. I haven't heard any good arguments on how the way Bitcoin solves things is so beneficial that it becomes a worthwhile tradeoff. I don't see why it should be the defining factor on what is or isn't considered a cryptocurrency.

Re: Libra, 2 Weeks In

#280

Post by iso-8859-1 »

ambicapter wrote: post #71
iso-8859-1 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside is that there is no market for watchtowers yet (so you need be online while having channels open). Another disadvantage is that if you control your key, you must be online. Like, if you run an HTTP server, you must have a machine. With plain Bitcoin you can spend to a pubkey and it doesn't have to be online

How does the transaction appear on the blockchain if you're not online?

If you are not online, you can't receive or send at all (this is why I said "Another disadvantage")

The channel state appears on the blockchain once either party closes the channel.

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