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No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

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Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our teams at Tanium do something similar. There’s no pay bump to lead the group... and we have a number of folks who’ve led the a team and then went back to IC. It’s worked quite well overall; however, is a difficult position (sometimes leading north of forty folks)

Not giving you extra money for it is probably the best role but how does one ever actually move up at this place in that case?

At least at many big companies, there’s a dual career ladder for ICs and managers, with equal pay across equivalent levels (e.g. Manager ~ Senior engineer, Director ~ Principal Engineer)

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#272
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, this sort of ignores that many academic departments are often crippled by overwhelming internal politics, and they rarely scale beyond a few dozen people at most. Moreover, many academicians within a department often work on completely separate projects requiring little or no coordination of any kind. This is dramatically different from what is encountered in many commercial organizations and companies…

And large companies are not crippled by internal politics?

Large companies tend towards politics because it’s hard to build empathy and trust across thousands of people. Academic departments tend towards politics because nominal leaders either have no training or no power

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#273

The problem with explicit leadership positions is that people have no downward mobility. If you are bad, then the organization loses a great resource. I like the model of dept head in academia. Professors really want to be doing research, but they also need a dept head who handles administration. No one really wants to do it, so it rotates through the department. There are some perks like a pay bump, reduced teaching…

The way my workplace addresses this is:

1. Transitioning to management or tech lead is not a promotion, but a change in responsibilities (and transitions back are common);

2. Whether manager or IC, we only promote people based on demonstrated ability, not potential, to avoid the Peter Principle

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#274
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, this sort of ignores that many academic departments are often crippled by overwhelming internal politics, and they rarely scale beyond a few dozen people at most. Moreover, many academicians within a department often work on completely separate projects requiring little or no coordination of any kind. This is dramatically different from what is encountered in many commercial organizations and companies…

And large companies are not crippled by internal politics?

small companies have internal politics too, if they're crippling depends on factors but it is very possible

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#275

The problem with explicit leadership positions is that people have no downward mobility. If you are bad, then the organization loses a great resource. I like the model of dept head in academia. Professors really want to be doing research, but they also need a dept head who handles administration. No one really wants to do it, so it rotates through the department. There are some perks like a pay bump, reduced teaching…

The way my workplace addresses this is: 1. Transitioning to management or tech lead is not a promotion, but a change in responsibilities (and transitions back are common); 2. Whether manager or IC, we only promote people based on demonstrated ability, not potential, to avoid the Peter Principle

>Transitioning to management or tech lead is not a promotion, but a change in responsibilities (and transitions back are common);

I strongly agree with this idea. "Servant Leadership" is one way to handle this, where management positions are framed entirely around enabling the ICs, catalyzing communication, and moving things forward, rather than "Command & Control" styles based on tracking, scheduling, and assigning work.

>we only promote people based on demonstrated ability, not potential, to avoid the Peter Principle

In my experience, this attitude often can lead to moving the conflict to "what qualifies as 'demonstrated ability?'," rather than "who do we think might do well in this role." I find the former argument far more tiresome and difficult to resolve with good leadership, rather than the latter, which requires more soft skills and conflict resolution abilities. Coupled with the idea of removing the taboo from Management-->IC transitions, I think focusing on good leaders increasing their effectiveness at identifying other good leaders, both picking positively and countering bias, can probably have better outcomes than a system based around somehow proving ahead of time that someone has some defined abilities before allowing them to attempt to grow into a role. I think most people can grow into a role faster than they can figure out how to pull the right political levers to "demonstrate" their abilities for a promotion while still fulfilling their current role.

This can end up somewhat like a "Reverse Peter Principle," if you will. Instead of people stagnating at some "ratcheted" rung on a single ladder due to lack of ability or motivation to excel in their current role, you have people stagnating because they are focused on demonstrating things outside their current role, rather than fulfilling core duties.

Not totally disagreeing with you, overall. It's just a balance to strike.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#276
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good point when in that situation. But it's worth remembering that in development people are rarely in that situation. For various reasons, however people (including me) often bring that kind of emergency thinking into development and it just shows things down. Rushing into the debugger instead of slowing down for a minute and thinking about it for a minute. Doing a little bit of design and thinking about wh…

In this case, I understood the rapids to mean things like production incidents necessitating a coordinated incident response system with well-defined roles and responsibilities.

It’s important to have an Incident Commander, but that goes by the oncall rotation, no the org chart.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#277
post #240

There's one thing I've learned from white water rafting: On slow parts democracy works fine - everyone discussing about the best path - but when things start happening fast you need a single captain to make the calls, otherwise you end up hitting every single rock in the river while trying to agree if it's better to go left or right around it.

Look at the time, it is hair-splitting o'clock! >_> Having a single captain can still be a democratic system; what is being replaced isn't the democratic element (where power rests with the people) - that is still in place. What is being changed is swapping a deliberative assembly (or committee or something) for a single executive for making decisions. So what is being identified is technically something like 'delibe…

This is fairly topical point. Yet in terms of maximizing stability, it seems like those democracies that do -not- vest too much executive power in a single person tend to fair better. Many presidential systems which adhere to strict notions of unitary executive theory are finding themselves at the mercy of unaccountable and uncontrollable leaders, while parliamentary and semi-presidential systems which better distribute executive authority and retain close accountability to democratic feedback mechanisms fair better.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And large companies are not crippled by internal politics?

Large companies tend towards politics because it’s hard to build empathy and trust across thousands of people. Academic departments tend towards politics because nominal leaders either have no training or no power

The battles are so fierce because the stakes are so low.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#279
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, this sort of ignores that many academic departments are often crippled by overwhelming internal politics, and they rarely scale beyond a few dozen people at most. Moreover, many academicians within a department often work on completely separate projects requiring little or no coordination of any kind. This is dramatically different from what is encountered in many commercial organizations and companies…

And large companies are not crippled by internal politics?

[deleted]

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, just as wood, concrete, drywall, and paint are pretty fundamental things to building a house. Using the same materials, two houses could come out very different. There is a spectrum of management style, from complete micromanagement of every schedule, ticket, and team structure. At the other end of the spectrum, you let the product owners set those parameters then reward or punish according to outcomes. Basical…

Your original interlocutor argued that > Unless everyone can spend money drawn from the corporate account, and everyone can fire anyone else, the structure isn't flat. which I don't think you ever really addressed. That there is more than these powers doesn't change that these powers are basically what defines meaningful hierarchy. They are necessary, but not sufficient; other functions are contributory, but neither…

> You can't have a company without money and people. That's literally what a company is.

To reiterate my point by playing off your statement: you also can't have a company without a product or service (unless you are Enron). Budgets and hiring are very important, but not core. I have to respectfully disagree.

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