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Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

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Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever done contract coding? You don't always get to set the rates, because the rate for the contract is posted, and the other side is not going to negotiate.

Contractor here. Well you are not obligated to accept the contract if the rate is too low. These Lyft / Uber drivers do the same thing, the rate offered by Lyft/Uber for a ride is too low so they decline and only accept if they get their preferred rate. The same as software engineer contractor does, I don't accept every contract opportunity when I am in between contracts.

In Uber Pool / Lyft Line, drivers are not allowed to refuse extra riders. If they accept one of these jobs they are locked in to whatever jobs Uber/Lyft throws at them afterwards unless they want to end their shift.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One year I made around minimum wage (paying myself just barely enough to live during the early stage of a startup) and paid I think around 25% effective just for federal. I now make a lot more than that with a W2 job as my primary source of income and my effective federal tax rate was about half of what it was that year. IMO FICA cap should be raised significantly and the rate should be reduced. There are entry-level…

That’s because with a W2 job, the employer pays taxes on the behalf of the employee. When you are self employed then you pay both sides. It’s pretty fair.

You still get to deduct half of your SE tax from your ordinary income, which is fairly generous from the IRS's perspective.

From the perspective of someone like me, my W2 job already puts me in the 24% bracket this year. If you use a platform to freelance, they'll take their 5-20% cut, you'll owe FICA at ~15%, ordinary at 24% (a little less because W4 withholding tends to overestimate), and state taxes at 5-10%. It's fair because those are what the rates are and I know what I'm getting into, they just appear higher at first glance.

It's also easy for me as a software engineer to set my own rate to account for the extra taxes I'm responsible for. In fact, my rate is significantly higher on the one particular platform where I'll only see ~$150 of the first $500 billed to a new client after everyone takes their cut (on which the client also pays ~$10 in transaction fees to the platform).

It's nowhere near as easy for a Uber/Lyft driver to do so since their rate is set for them by some algorithm that tries to balance supply and demand. These companies went out of their way to classify drivers as contractors, but still want to present an interface to the riders that tells them that they're taking an Uber and not that they used Uber to find an independent driver.

IMO they can't have it both ways. Drivers should be able to set their own rates and riders should be presented with a list of drivers and rates to pick from. Uber still gets to take their cut and they can still set up surge pricing as a % of the driver's rate. There can still be an option to pick the cheapest driver for those who don't care. This would better reflect what these companies are trying to legally classify themselves as.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#273
post #53

I can think of a ton of technical ways Uber and Lyft can combat this. And they probably will. And they'll be short term happy and long term foolish. Because they're treating the symptoms, not the cause.

I assume you're proposing that the cause is 'low' wages. So let's say drivers earned an average of $50/hour. This would put them in an income bracket such that they earn more than 95% of Americans. Do you think that people would not then exploit a legal angle to bump their earn up to let's say $70/hour, if they found out a way to do so?

Once you account for self employment tax, gas, wear and tear on the car, and a total lack of job benefits, an Uber driving being paid $50/hour probably makes less than someone getting paid $25/hour in a steady job. For sure they would be making wayyy less than the top %5 of Americans.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#274
“Over 75% drive less than 10 hours a week to supplement existing jobs. On average, Lyft drivers earn over $20 per hour.”

These statistics could be very misleading. For example let’s say one driver works 4 hours, another 6 hours, another 10 hours with all three making making $25/hr and the final one works 80 hours making $10/hour. In this scenario 75% of drivers are driving 10 or less hours a week and the mean driver hourly rate is over $20. However 80% of the hours driven are by one driver making $10/hour. This one driver is clearly the workhorse of the ride-sharing company making the bulk of the profit.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#275

News flash: if you go out of your way to classify your entire workforce as contractors, you don't get to decide when they work or not. It turns out this has consequences on both sides. If Lyft wants to decide when their drivers are working, there's a process for this: 1) Hire employees 2) Give them a schedule 3) Pay them hourly plus mileage

I find it hard to agree. Hear me out... They are contractors because they do not have any set obligation for time. Rate of pay or overall pay has nothing at all to do with that. According to the IRS they do not have a set schedule and they are contractors (that is 1099, not W2). So they are contractors. What does that have to do with pay? Absolutely nothing. You want x and are willing to pay y. Maybe there’s an oppor…

Plenty of contractors have set hours and come into an office. Several friends in software contracting firms for example do that. Also uber doesn't agree to pay you a damn thing. You could literally go work for 4 hours and make <$10.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#276
post #253
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On that note, does it make a difference that they're collectively refusing work rather than collectively setting prices ? Uber and Lyft are still the ones actually setting the price. In the end I don't think it will matter, Uber and Lyft could probably code around this pretty easily if it started to affect their bottom line. When they see 100+ drivers in the same place go offline within X seconds of each other, it's…

Refusing to sell a product or a service below a specific price is literally what setting prices is.

Sounds like forced labor to me.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#277
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under the theory that Uber/Lyft employees are contractors and allowed to set prices, wouldn't coordinating ("conspiring") to do so en masse be considered price fixing? Personally I think they should be considered employees, but a pro-management federal prosecutor could make some trouble for them.

On that note, does it make a difference that they're collectively refusing work rather than collectively setting prices ? Uber and Lyft are still the ones actually setting the price. In the end I don't think it will matter, Uber and Lyft could probably code around this pretty easily if it started to affect their bottom line. When they see 100+ drivers in the same place go offline within X seconds of each other, it's…

While both companies provided consumer-friendly press statements, I would not assume that Lyft or Uber actually cares if this is happening. After all, they also make more money per ride under the scheme. As long as there are enough customers willing to pay the extra cost during surge pricing, drivers and Uber/Lyft would both win.

Speaking of price-fixing.. Competition is what usually keeps prices low in ride-sharing; if Lyft is too expensive, more people will use Uber. But if the drivers of both apps all trigger surge pricing together (in both platforms simultaneously) then it is possible that both platforms will make more money until the fake surge ends.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#278
post #8

As much as I would be displeased if my fare were manipulated, I can only blame Uber and Lyft for this. They created an incentive for drivers to act as a unit, and groups of drivers are figuring it out. Really makes you long for the transparent, posted pricing of municipal taxis

>> Really makes you long for the transparent, posted pricing of municipal taxis ...Absolutely not. I live in Malta, where Uber does not exist, but similar services do + local regulated taxis. It is extremely clear who gets a rating and who does not give a f### about reputation and repeat business. The only ones who use the real taxis here are tourists. I don't know anybody local (expat or native), who would use the "…

Taxi's are not allowed to price gouge, they also cannot refuse you service, etc, etc. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own rates. This isn't how it works? Rates of pay are mutually agreed upon between an employer and employee regardless of classification.

They're not just talking about how much of the fee that drivers get to keep, but the rate they charge riders. >Uber sees itself as an “agent” acting to connect the actual “merchant,” the driver, and the customer. [1] Under the theory Uber is operating on, it's weird that drivers can't directly set rates with riders. 1. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/uber-an-early-adopter-of-n...

This has no bearing on whether drivers are employees or contractors however.

Re: Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges

#280
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not accepting a ride until an agreed (the rider can always cancel the ride) price is met is entirely different than taking a longer route after a job has started.

You're avoiding the point, which is the collusion and artificial price increase. That's fraudulent. Edit: Whether this is a "regulated market" is a red herring and irrelevant.

Drivers don't set prices, Uber and Lyft do. Uber can keep prices lower and hire employees if they want.
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