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Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

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Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#271
post #28
post #5

Am I reading correctly that this argument has now been going on for 8 years, or at minimum nearly 6? [1] An argument about who I am buying from when I type my credit card into Apple's system, click a purchase button on an Apple device, and then use the results of that purchase solely on Apple devices? [1] https://www.oyez.org/cases/2018/17-204

I see what you’re implying, but tweak one little thing and the answer seems vastly different: Instead of an Apple device, say you’re using a Google-manufactured Android device (something-or-other), and have installed a third-party App Store on it. But that third-party App Store turns around and uses Google Pay as its payment processor. All the same qualifications still apply: you essentially used a “Google POS device…

Yes, if you change literally every single detail then it changes the outcome somewhat.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is (allegedly) monopolising a market, which is not the same as skimming a percentage off transactions, and damages do not have to be estimated as a straightforward percentage of all transactions. A monopoly has structural implications which could disadvantage both customers and developers in ways that go beyond paying x% Apple Tax on each sale. For example - opportunity costs for both developers and customers,…

The problem with the "monopolizing a market" idea is the fact that "Apple devices" is not a meaningful market, and within the actual "smartphone" market Apple very clearly does not have a monopoly.

It's the app market for iPhone users.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#273
post #4

For those who don't want to read the opinion: SCOTUS holds that Apple can be sued for alleged monopoly of the Apple App Store. It does not decide whether or not this alleged monopoly exist. Interestingly, it's a 5-4 decision, with Kavanaugh writing the decision, joined by the 4 liberal justices. Probably the most unexpected alignment of the current term!

This is what is great about it being a lifetime appointment. There is literally nothing else for these folks to strive for except being well regarded in the history books, so they can finally do what they regard as the best thing to do.

That's why it should be a single-term appointment, perhaps 18 years. Lifetime is a ridiculous term.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The right side of history" is for politicians to pursue, not for judges. They aren't supposed to make policies or create laws, their job is to apply the laws. If they do their job correctly, and you disagree with the constitution and therefore also with their decisions, that should never be an issue for them.

The supreme Court primarily hears important cases where there are strong and reasonable legal arguments on each side. The idea that they can just apply the law in these cases is a bit unrealistic. It's just not that clear cut in the majority of SC cases.

Usually, the court decides important case on extremely subtly technical details unrelated to the main merits of the case, and the results are blown way out of proportion by the wider sociery.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#275
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The point in question is which of these two customers has standing to sue on the basis of the specific harm in question. Under US law the answer cannot be both." This in fact not what SCOTUS wrote, SCOTUS clearly said that Apple may be sued by developers and consumers alike, the mere fact that apple has a monopolistic (They hold all the consumer supply in this market) and a monopsonistic(They satisfy all the demand…

I don't understand this argument though. Surely if both app customers and app developers sued Apple they'd be suing over the exact same damages? Either customers have their prices artificially increased, at which point app developers don't have damages as they're getting the money from customers, or else app developers are keeping prices low and taking the damage themselves, at which point customers aren't harmed.

Devs need to increase their prices to make a living to account for the 30% Apple tax. Higher prices hurt the consumers who do not want to pay that and shouldn't as the app developers do not even want their customers to pay that. Apple made it so, so it's hurting the customers.

Then again higher prices usually leads to less demand, hurting the devs even more (who will have to either eat the losses, or increase prices even more; goto 1). Apple made it so, so it's hurting the developers.

So Apple is hurting both, customers and developers.

But are app customers also Apple customers? Well, customers give a ton of money to Apple directly. It is comparable to a brick and mortar store where the customer does not actually pay the store, but the landlord of real estate in which the store is housed, who then keeps 30% and kicks over the rest to the actual store owner. And then the landlord claims it has no relationship whatsoever with those customers. Sounds ridiculous to me. Imagine credit card companies said they will no longer do any fraud prevention let alone fraud compensation because because all the money exchanged it between the customer and the vendor (or fraudster).

But it even goes further than this: said hypothetical brick and mortar store is in a company town, so all estate in the town is owned by the same landlord (the company in "company town"). Neither the store owner nor the customers have alternatives to do business in that town without the landlord's involvement. "But you can always move" says the landlord (i.e buy a non-iPhone as a customers and switch to another platform such as Android as a developer)...

Now the question is whether the court will find Apple is abusing their monopoly on "iOS App Stores" or if they are well within their right, because they do not actually have a monopoly as there is more than just iPhones and their App Store in the market.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#276
post #248
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with a 10 year employment is the expectation of getting paid for performance at the end of that term.

What do you mean by this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolving_door_(politics)

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a democracy, they kind of are. Indirectly, obviously. My feelings and desires affect how I vote, and voting affects legislation as well as such things as who gets appointed to the Supreme Court. (and given our legal system, courts determine law as much as legislators do) I think it is awful that manufacturers of devices have that level of control of who can sell apps to run on them, and I certainly hope enough oth…

Consumers have a choice, though, and that trumps most other considerations. With Android, they receive an alternative set of constraints. Do I think Apple is wise to be as restrictive as they are? No. Is it within their bounds to do so? Absolutely. As a consumer, I can be disgruntled that my chosen platform is not as flexible as I wish. I can either throw a fit and lobby congress to force Apple to open its gates, or…

They have a choice between two monopolistic platforms, frankly.

Your purchasing decisions are not mutually exclusive with action from courts and legislators and voters and such. And, especially if you take into account that market theory as well as game theory tends to view individuals as rational agents pursuing self interest (1), a pure free market approach simply does not effectively curtail monopolistic and otherwise anti-competitive behavior of corporations.

[1] as a baseline, anyway.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumers have a choice, though, and that trumps most other considerations. With Android, they receive an alternative set of constraints. Do I think Apple is wise to be as restrictive as they are? No. Is it within their bounds to do so? Absolutely. As a consumer, I can be disgruntled that my chosen platform is not as flexible as I wish. I can either throw a fit and lobby congress to force Apple to open its gates, or…

They have a choice between two monopolistic platforms, frankly. Your purchasing decisions are not mutually exclusive with action from courts and legislators and voters and such. And, especially if you take into account that market theory as well as game theory tends to view individuals as rational agents pursuing self interest (1), a pure free market approach simply does not effectively curtail monopolistic and other…

As a user, I can freely sideload onto Android devices, or even use custom Google-free distributions. This argument is incomplete.

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is (allegedly) monopolising a market, which is not the same as skimming a percentage off transactions, and damages do not have to be estimated as a straightforward percentage of all transactions. A monopoly has structural implications which could disadvantage both customers and developers in ways that go beyond paying x% Apple Tax on each sale. For example - opportunity costs for both developers and customers,…

The problem with the "monopolizing a market" idea is the fact that "Apple devices" is not a meaningful market, and within the actual "smartphone" market Apple very clearly does not have a monopoly.

Although the US antitrust laws do use the language of monopoly, they are broadly drafted and have been subject to a lot of judicial interpretation. Rather than monopoly, when considering antitrust questions it is sometimes better to think about "market power and … whether business conduct has or likely will have anticompetitive effects." [1]

"Market definition is least useful when market shares would not be strongly probative of market power or anticompetitive effect, while direct evidence as to market power or anticompetitive effect is available and convincing." Apple's control of the App Store has a direct anticompetitive effect in the secondary market for iOS apps. This is pretty clear from the fact that Apple explicitly prohibits some apps that compete with its own. The interesting question is whether the plaintiffs will succeed in proving that Apple's conduct is illegal, under the prevailing interpretation of the US antitrust laws.

[1]: Market definition: an analytical overview (2007). https://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?...

Re: Supreme Court rules antitrust lawsuit against Apple can proceed

#280
post #252

Can anyone now blast Apple on anti-trust grounds, for banning competing browsers in their store? When Apple want to sabotage universal adoption of certain technology (such as DASH for video streaming), they can avoid implementing needed components on the client side in their engine, forcing everyone who wants to target iOS (a sizable chunk of the Web market) to support their own technology instead of only something e…

On the one hand I dislike that Safari has a monopoly in iOS, but I fear the alternative is a de-facto monopoly for Chrome, which could be even worse.
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