America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery • Hacker News Board

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#271

Post by perl4ever » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:09 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #229

jeffdavis wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be more a matter of accounting. If you imagine that we are all born in a kind of "debt" where we need a home to live in, then a mortgage is just putting that debt on paper.

If you want to imagine we are all born with a 'debt' then you should also assume we are born with an 'asset'. They should be workign to put that on paper faster than the debt. As a personal choice, I don't accept any excuse for taking on debt to fund a lifestyle. It is just not a good idea. I've talked to people who come up with these crazy justifications in their 20s why spending money now is more important than spe…

"If you want to imagine we are all born with a 'debt' then you should also assume we are born with an 'asset'. They should be workign to put that on paper faster than the debt."

If you take your salary and divide it by a reasonable interest rate, then you get the value of yourself as an asset, or the equivalent amount of capital you would need not to work. It is a large amount if you choose a realistic interest rate.

So, sure, a few hundred thousand in debt for school or a house is not such a big deal when you consider that an ordinary salary is equivalent to a million or two in capital.

The issue is cash flow, which seems to be what you are acknowledging, so how do you get to a fanatical anti-debt stance?

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#272

Post by moneywoes » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:11 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #261

iamnothere wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A big part of life is spreading your genes and making sure that your offspring are well set up to continue spreading your genes. According to some. Or, you can opt out of this and enjoy your life anyway. It's troubling to see so many people in this thread concerned with "winning" at life. In the end we all die, then it's game over. Any high score is quickly forgotten. Life is brief, treasure it while you still draw…

The main drive/purpose of life is to continue and spread itself, that’s just fundamental biology. You’re free to opt out of that and define your own goals (it sounds like enjoying yourself is your goal), but without another generation to pass it on to, everything that every human has ever done will have been pointless, because the purpose of most of what we do is to help humans. And what we collectively leave them wi…

So having offspring is basically the primary goal of our species?

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#273

Post by iamnothere » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:21 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #261

iamnothere wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A big part of life is spreading your genes and making sure that your offspring are well set up to continue spreading your genes. According to some. Or, you can opt out of this and enjoy your life anyway. It's troubling to see so many people in this thread concerned with "winning" at life. In the end we all die, then it's game over. Any high score is quickly forgotten. Life is brief, treasure it while you still draw…

The main drive/purpose of life is to continue and spread itself, that’s just fundamental biology. You’re free to opt out of that and define your own goals (it sounds like enjoying yourself is your goal), but without another generation to pass it on to, everything that every human has ever done will have been pointless, because the purpose of most of what we do is to help humans. And what we collectively leave them wi…

> it sounds like enjoying yourself is your goal

It is one goal of many; there's no reason to limit yourself to a singular goal. I don't claim that my goals have any special meaning though, they are simply how I am driven to act in the world. Each of us is driven in different ways, and although we tend to wrap our drives in elaborate disguises and claim "free will", at the end of the day we are simply elegant (though somewhat squishy) machines.

> without another generation to pass it on to, everything that every human has ever done will have been pointless

Yes, that's exactly it. The very notion that anything has to have a "point" or "meaning" is something that humans dreamed up. It's an unfortunate side effect of our sense-making systems that help us understand the world.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#274

Post by roenxi » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:24 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #271

roenxi wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to imagine we are all born with a 'debt' then you should also assume we are born with an 'asset'. They should be workign to put that on paper faster than the debt. As a personal choice, I don't accept any excuse for taking on debt to fund a lifestyle. It is just not a good idea. I've talked to people who come up with these crazy justifications in their 20s why spending money now is more important than spe…

"If you want to imagine we are all born with a 'debt' then you should also assume we are born with an 'asset'. They should be workign to put that on paper faster than the debt." If you take your salary and divide it by a reasonable interest rate, then you get the value of yourself as an asset, or the equivalent amount of capital you would need not to work. It is a large amount if you choose a realistic interest rate.…

Maybe I didn't emphasis it enough; the key part is on the second line where I said "taking on debt to fund a lifestyle".

I spun a off topic; nickelcitymario's original scenario riled me up. It compared someone with a steady income to someone without an income and concluded that the person with an income had a financial edge because they had debts - that isn't right, the person with the income is ahead because they have an income.

A mortgage, car payments and student loans are luxuries that are not required to make an income; and the people I know with those things tend not to be using them to make money but rather to fund a lifestyle (for reference, I think the wealthiest set of friends I have are not university educated, buy second hand cars and rent - very relaxed lifestyle).

It is a common trope that people misjudge debt, take on too much, turn themselves into debt slaves and then suffer. They misjudge the situation and charge in when they are young and haven't really had time to learn about what makes a person happy. It is annoying that people keep downplaying the costs and risks of debt - it is an expensive, usually long term commitment and it results in ordinary people having less wealth. Wealth is hugely beneficial in strategic and tactical terms.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#275

Post by ericd » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:36 AM UTC

moneywoes wrote: post #272

ericd wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main drive/purpose of life is to continue and spread itself, that’s just fundamental biology. You’re free to opt out of that and define your own goals (it sounds like enjoying yourself is your goal), but without another generation to pass it on to, everything that every human has ever done will have been pointless, because the purpose of most of what we do is to help humans. And what we collectively leave them wi…

So having offspring is basically the primary goal of our species?

I'd say the primary purpose of the species is to continue the species. It's not everyone's individual drive, some people not having offspring so that they can focus on other things probably helps the group.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#276

Post by wl » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:36 AM UTC

DuskStar wrote: post #266

wl wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of "fun shit" are you thinking of? Select fire is rare and expensive. Open bolt semiautomatics? Eh, some people are into collecting such things, but closed bolts are just as fun to shoot. Just about the only somewhat reasonably priced grandfathered "fun shit" are pistols that can take stocks and not be NFA SBRs.

Select fire is rare and expensive for legislative, not practical, reasons. And it is VERY fun, if not particularly useful. It's a large part of what I was thinking of. Why would the price matter?

If we're having a discussion about long-lived firearms having an effect on the market for new firearms, select fire is so rare (175,997 pre-86 transferrable as of February 2016[0]) as to be irrelevant.

[0] https://www.nfatca.org/pubs/MG_Count_FOIA_2016.pdf

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#277

Post by ericd » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:41 AM UTC

iamnothere wrote: post #273

ericd wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main drive/purpose of life is to continue and spread itself, that’s just fundamental biology. You’re free to opt out of that and define your own goals (it sounds like enjoying yourself is your goal), but without another generation to pass it on to, everything that every human has ever done will have been pointless, because the purpose of most of what we do is to help humans. And what we collectively leave them wi…

> it sounds like enjoying yourself is your goal It is one goal of many; there's no reason to limit yourself to a singular goal. I don't claim that my goals have any special meaning though, they are simply how I am driven to act in the world. Each of us is driven in different ways, and although we tend to wrap our drives in elaborate disguises and claim "free will", at the end of the day we are simply elegant (though…

I didn't mean that derisively, btw. I think it's perfectly fine to want to focus on other things besides raising children. We don't need more people being raised by parents who don't want to raise them.

I do think we can modify our drives, though, and that free will isn't quite as much of an illusion as you say. Visualization is pretty powerful.

But you're right that there's not necessarily a real point. If it's a complete fiction, though, I think it's a useful one.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#278

Post by chillwaves » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:42 AM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #199

bluGill wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you die deep in dept you managed to cheat at life: your cost of living was higher than input. If you die rich you got cheated: you put more effort into life than you got out of it.

If you died rich and have a family to leave the wealth to and the state isn't set up to steal your wealth by taxing you a second time, you've won at life. A big part of life is spreading your genes and making sure that your offspring are well set up to continue spreading your genes. This either requires heirs and wealth at death or at least making sure you transfer wealth to your heirs before you die.

Taxing a second time? Like what, a sales tax when I make a purchase on my already taxed income?

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#279

Post by iamnothere » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:54 AM UTC

ericd wrote: post #277

iamnothere wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it sounds like enjoying yourself is your goal It is one goal of many; there's no reason to limit yourself to a singular goal. I don't claim that my goals have any special meaning though, they are simply how I am driven to act in the world. Each of us is driven in different ways, and although we tend to wrap our drives in elaborate disguises and claim "free will", at the end of the day we are simply elegant (though…

I didn't mean that derisively, btw. I think it's perfectly fine to want to focus on other things besides raising children. We don't need more people being raised by parents who don't want to raise them. I do think we can modify our drives, though, and that free will isn't quite as much of an illusion as you say. Visualization is pretty powerful. But you're right that there's not necessarily a real point. If it's a co…

> I do think we can modify our drives, though, and that free will isn't quite as much of an illusion as you say. Visualization is pretty powerful.

I agree that our drives can be modified, but who is modifying them, and based on what drives? And where does the drive to modify ourselves come from? It's turtles all the way down.

To quote Hofstadter: "In the end, we self-perceiving, self-inventing, locked-in mirages are little miracles of self-reference."

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#280

Post by r00fus » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:22 AM UTC

luckydata wrote: post #59

rtpg wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that money is money, but I feel like we desperately need to make conflict of interests prosecutable, so we can kill the self-serving mess that are LBOs. In what universe is "I borrow a bunch of money, buy a company, then force the company to basically borrow money from me" a value-creating operation? Cuz it sure isn't this one.

The only fix required would be changing slightly the definition of fiduciary duty expanding the concept to ALL stakeholders including customers and the people living where those businesses are based and it would become illegal overnight to do that. It will never happen.

Forced "public service charter" (class B corp) for repeat, no-regret offenders (like a corporate version of public restitution, but in perpetuity)