Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m sorry that this is your world view, because it is deeply flawed and focusing on such cynicism leads to depression. Most of HN lives in a tech bubble where everyone is focused on building semi-useless software like you describe. However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. and some sort of fundamental reorganizing of society on non-market principles doesn…
Almost every job i've worked outside of tech is pretty much some non essential service or product. Right now I turn mountains into countertops and fireplaces using large, expensive machines so rich people can have stone inside their homes. I provide nothing that is essential, yet every day customers spend tens of thousands of dollars and my spends thousands so rich people can have nice shiny stone inside their homes.…
Is everything an MLM
271–280 of 297 posts
Re: Is everything an MLM
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
So far, all of the experiments to make everyone equal have resulted in soviet-style housing for the many and well-appointed dachas for the few -- and that's at best. I'm doubtful that future experiments will have a different result.
Maybe. In countries with socialized medicine, access to healthcare services is usually more equal than countries without socialized medicine. So if some equality can be created in such an important choice, maybe it could be achieved in the less important choice of counter tops, if someone we're to bother.
Re: Is everything an MLM
#273Earlier quoted context omitted.
The economy definitely behaves in ways that has to do with percent of GDP. Capital allocation is the most obvious factor. Individuals feel the weight of finance on the economy regardless of whether they know it or care.
It's just not capturing anything interesting about how growth in one industry should affect other people's decisions. Consider a factory town in the Midwest. The factory closing is not good for other businesses! Their loss is not a gain for you. Or if some bank decides to put its headquarters there, that is very good for the community. Generally speaking, being in a rich or growing area is a good location for busines…
It turns out that over the last four decades, the answer has overwhelmingly been "accrue to a small number of people", and most people have seen almost nothing in terms of gains. A big part of the reason why is that there are entire industries (finance) devoted to that accrual. As a result, the continually-growing pie doesn't matter, because every time the pie grows larger, a few people keep taking larger and larger slices of it.
Re: Is everything an MLM
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The alternative to letting the individual determine what they want is to let someone else choose for them. In real-world "free" markets, the poor have their choices made for them by the wealthy.
Really? The wealthy are to blame? Wealthy tell poor mothers to buy junk food instead of healthier (and cheaper) options? Wealthy tell poor kids to watch TV instead of doing homework? Wealthy tell poor that having a budget and sticking to it is a dumb idea?
As for having a budget and sticking to it, no one is better at budgeting than the poor, out of sheer necessity.
Re: Is everything an MLM
#275Earlier quoted context omitted.
"If I make more money there is not someone else losing." Actually, that's exactly how it works: we can't both own the same dollar. Duh.
> Actually, that's exactly how it works: we can't both own the same dollar. Duh. I’m guessing you’ve never taken an economics course. Or if you have, you didn’t understand it. “Making the pie bigger” (growth) is a thing, and it’s a thing that happens quite frequently. “Getting a bigger share of the same size pie” (zero sum) leaves a lot of opportunity on the table.
Re: Is everything an MLM
#276Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm curious. Did you take my post as pro capitalism? Or pro status quo? And out of curiosity, what exactly was it that pointed to that conclusion? It really wasn't my intention, is all and that's why I'm curious and you seem pretty bent out of shape, or am I misreading the, "But, gee, that's fine because those people earned that money...nevermind that's it's economically ineffective."
I did not intend to come off snarky. I did read your comment as a little bit pro-capitalist (although not strongly). I think the thing that did it was "The grass is always greener on the other side" which I read as "why bother changing when another system will have just as many problems." > am I misreading the, "But, gee, that's fine because those people earned that money...nevermind that's it's economically ineffect…
I don't really care if it's capitalism, socialism, or communism; once a system reaches a certain size, it becomes unstable and corrupt and starts to fold in upon itself through manipulation by people or groups who survive solely through that manipulation. You can see it in governments, crime systems, investment banking, etc. etc. any system which involves goods or moneys. It's a bug in the system and it's hard to fix because we can't change the smaller systems without revamping a huge amount of the larger system, as a whole, because a lot of these systems have not been built in easily changeable ways.
But, people are weird, machines are easy. What do you want when you bring politics into a computer forum.
Re: Is everything an MLM
#277Re: Is everything an MLM
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
Come on, don't be hyperbolic. You don't need a trust fund to do just fine. No one I knew growing up had a trust fund afaik. What is this victim complex my generation seems to have bought into wholesale? Who tricked you into taking on debt? Was in-state tuition not an option? As for the saving not being an option, are you sure you've cut your expenses as far as you can? If you eat out more than once per month or pay m…
> Who tricked you into taking on debt? Nobody tricked me, I'm debt-free. But most of the people I grew up with went to college, and most of them are riddled with debt now. Was it their personal responsibility not to go into debt? Technically, yes! Did they have all the information available to them about what this debt would mean for their lives? No. Would they have made this decision if we didn't live in a society t…
Your other complaints I think are mostly just part of the current economic reality of the world - low interest rates and relative economic stability have driven up asset prices to extreme levels, including housing. It's also the main reason for the ever-present inequality headlines. "Stock market continues to do really well, saving otherwise screwed pension plans" doesn't generate the same number of rage clicks, though. Free trade, improved telecommunications, and very efficient container shipping have made it so that you're now competing much more directly with hundreds of millions of well educated Chinese and Indian workers, or billions of less educated Indians and Chinese, depending on your profession, which has increased available labor supply, and decreased worker negotiating power. Contrast this with the boomers, who were born into a country with one of the very few strong, unscathed industrial bases, which helped rebuild the world. Of course they had an easier time economically. But time marches on. Maybe you can blame them for not managing the wealth better.
Which brings me to my next point - it's not that Millenials are dumb with money, most Americans of all ages who didn't experience the Great Depression are.
You say that the amount extra they could be saving is a drop in the bucket, but the difference between saving -$50/mo and +$50/mo is only $100, but it's also the difference between a debt spiral and building up an emergency fund. And that's only going out a few times (or less than once in a HCOL city), or cutting cable. And then saving another $100/mo literally triples that savings rate. Many Americans are around that level of personal profitability, so it's worth talking about.
I think a deep depression is coming in the next credit/debt cycle bust or the one after, based on what I've been reading about how debt cycles work (I recommend Big Debt Crises by Ray Dalio), which should bring asset prices down. Of course, it'll also bring incomes down, spike unemployment, and a whole host of other shitty problems.
I agree that saving more isn't a cure-all, but it's pretty powerful. We should absolutely try to change some things about the world - I'm a monthly donor to Bernie and some other causes, and I go to city council meetings to argue against homeowner associations to try to overturning restrictive zoning rules to get more dense housing supply online and bring down rents. But in the meantime, being more frugal would absolutely help most people. Part of that is that it would give them much more financial freedom and confidence to demand higher wages with the knowledge that they could afford to lose their current job if it came to that. It might make them focus less on how they feel victimized by the world, which may help them avoid becoming depressed. And decreasing consumption would make their lifestyle more environmentally sustainable. And they might find that they just don't need much in the way of material goods to be happy, which is an incredibly freeing discovery. We could all benefit from being a bit more frugal. But part of that is accepting that you're largely responsible for the outcome of your life (modulo your starting conditions) and going against the grain a bit to work towards making it better.
I know that some people cannot save anything, because they're working multiple jobs, supporting kids, and still have to scrimp just to make ends meet. But I'm pretty sure they're not the ones complaining on the internet.
Re: Is everything an MLM
#279Most of the economy in the so called "developed countries" is nowadays a zero-sum game between winners and losers. Seen from a macro perspective, it resembles a multi-agent system where independent agents compete to provide inessential products and services in exchange for being able to afford basic necessities like housing, food and child care. The finite resource that such companies are fighting for is people's att…
I’m sorry that this is your world view, because it is deeply flawed and focusing on such cynicism leads to depression. Most of HN lives in a tech bubble where everyone is focused on building semi-useless software like you describe. However the majority of society still does “normal” things like construction, manufacturing, sales, etc. and some sort of fundamental reorganizing of society on non-market principles doesn…
No one in the comment section is going to address this?
Re: Is everything an MLM
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is that really true that the majority of people don't know what will make them happy? I mean yeah, there's a lot of tragic and unhappy people out there, but is it enough that we need to question the nature of our society? I, and most people I know, are pretty happy. Not every choice I make turns out well, but at least it's my choice and I accept the consequences. There are a few chemically depressed people in my soci…
>> Is that really true that the majority of people don't know what will make them happy? Decision and experience: why don't we choose what makes us happy? ""Recent years have witnessed a growing interest among psychologists and other social scientists in subjective well-being and happiness. Here we review selected contributions to this development from the literature on behavioral-decision theory. In particular, we e…
BTW, that paper didn't have any numbers in it, and didn't really help answer the question "Is that really true that the majority of people don't know what will make them happy?" The biases it enumerated are I am sure common, but do they dominate the lives of the majority of people? I am doubtful, especially if the proposal is "we will take away all your troubles, just let us make all your major life decisions for you (including, almost always, the ability to revoke the deal)".