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I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

doximity.com

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Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. No. Let me cut your crusade against the medical profession short by telling you that doctors are putting their money where their mouth is [1]. They see the kind of suffering that prolonging people's lives with certain conditions can inflict and choose to have none of it. Other than that your comment is incredibly rude towards people who will do everything in their ability to keep you alive anyways - if you/fami…

The literal title of this submission is "I lied when I said we did everything we could". If what I'm saying is conspiracy, so is this article. And no, I don't care if I'm being rude, I care if I'm being accurate. And I am. Stop making this about outrage and either have a conversation about the topic or leave. I may be wrong, but debating how offensive I'm being is a waste of everyone's time.

> The literal title of this submission is "I lied when I said we did everything we could". If what I'm saying is conspiracy, so is this article.

I think you totally missed the point of the article. The doctor there did what you advocate, it's just that he doesn't consider that doing everything they can.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first time I saw the death of someone close to me, I was tormented, too, by my own sense of the fragility of life. But especially my own life. I was afraid for myself, and tormented by the certitude of my own terminal existence, the fear amplified by the urgency of my circumstances and especially after witnessing (or participating in) the subsequent deaths of yet more close friends. But after some years of therap…

There is a dual or two-aspect irony at the center of modern culture in the West. The ironies - both negative - are the following: (1) An increasing, intentional aversion to one's own death and the death of others. Instead of living life in full awareness that you and those you care about are all dying (in some sense), our culture runs from the prospect of death through various forms of distraction, etc. This adolesce…

Facing one's own mortality carries a tacit knowledge of death that can't be got by other means. It's one thing to think about it intellectually, to sort of turn it around in your mind. But it doesn't give you a sense of death. I can tell from your treatment of it that you haven't. And that you hold up this sort of deeply personal interaction as a demonstration of some problems you believe you've identified with an entire culture, I think shows of a different kind of callousness of heart.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#273
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He could even create a rock he himself could not lift. Oh wait...

The answer to that is the concept of "can't" does not exist for God. Same as how the concept of alphabet does not apply to a number, or how you can't divide by zero. It's simply not a concept that can be applied.

If he literally created the universe and all the laws of nature, couldn’t he create such a concept?

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think ultimately there’s no good answer to this line of questioning, because an omnipotent god can make whatever he wants happen regardless of what humans do. Claims that someone is thwarting or enabling God’s will are subjective and religious leaders can deploy them however they wish.

He could even create a rock he himself could not lift. Oh wait...

> If he literally created the universe and all the laws of nature, couldn’t he create such a concept?

What is not, is not. Omnipotence means "being able to do anything that is possible to do", not "being able to do anything that is possible to be spoken of". Re-stating your argument:

* "He could even make a square circle" * "He could even tell a true falsehood" * "He could even do that which contradicts itself"

Making a rock too large to lift is "He could even make something that He could not control". What you have wound up rhyming with is Anselm's argument for the existence of God [1] - for if your god can make a rock to heavy for him to lift, then there exists a greater omnipotence that could lift that rock. Therefore, your god is not omnipotent, and is not god.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proslogion#Faith_Seeking_Under...

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#275

I have an incurable condition and spent about 3.5 months bedridden before finally getting a proper diagnosis. My condition has a significant respiratory component. While bedridden, I hallucinated wordless conversations with the Grim Reaper. One day, in the landscape of my mind, he rode up to me on a black steed, leaned down and peered into my face, then swirled around and rode off. I ran after him screaming "Don't le…

I have no connection with this author, but I wanted to point out that they have a patreon account if your so inclined.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#276
I am married to a ICU physician. Neurological Critical Care is their ultimate specialty, but they practice in all parts of the critical care system: Emergency->ICU/Neuro ICU.

It's a very emotionally and mentally taxing job. Basically nothing that arrives under your care is good news. Often you know the potential outcomes before anyone else, including the other physicians who are sending someone in to your care. A large portion of the job is telling other specialities "No", either because they haven't done their job or because the case is "non survivable". This is necessary because you have a very limited number of beds in an ICU and if you fill one, someone else might very well die while waiting to be prioritized in. Because of all that, you are almost never the 'hero' in the story. The very best you hope for is that people acknowledge that you were able to keep someone alive long enough to get the treatment they ultimately need, or you were able to stabilize them enough to move to a step-down or palliative care department.

Then there are the families. The vast majority seem (based on my external observation) seem to grasp what is happening and make reasonable decisions. There are some amount of them however, who are completely ignorant of the pain and suffering they are imposing on their loved one. Over time it seems like a young ICU physician goes from seeing these families as ill-informed and possibly well meaning to seeing them as selfish and uncaring.

Externally I would say that it seems like groupthink is almost always a component of the decision making process. In a setting where just a single partner or other person is making a decision, they have a lot of empathy, if it is a family or group, they have empathy for eachother, but not for the patient. At least not in the way they think they do.

I'm not sure where I am going with this other than to say that as an observer to this almost every day, this article really just scratches the surface of this issue. I shared it with my partner and another ICU physician and their reaction was "that's minor leagues after a while, but your first few do always stick with you" to "I don't know why I even do this job."

Current example: 87 year old patient, already has metastatic cancer, had a stroke and is being "maintained" entirely by machinery. The family "Doctor, you have to do everything, we want her to make it to her 90th birthday"

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#277

My Dad had a cardiac arrest at 70. And consequently deprived of oxygen for 10+ minutes. My Mom did all she could with chest pumps waiting for paramedics. This kept him alive so he made it to hospital. When I saw my Dad, a few hours later, his eyes were glazed over, pupils dilated, unable to make sort of recognizable sound, just soft nightmarish screams, and stretching out his arms like he wanted to get away. I though…

70 year old otherwise healthy male? I suspect nobody asked you about pulling a plug because nobody thought you should. At least not so quickly.

That's much different from what is described in the article.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#278
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of people who say that their favorite President was chosen by God. I always want to ask them if that means the ones they don’t like are also chosen by God, and if not, how they can tell which ones are and which ones aren’t.

Yes it means the ones they didn't like were also chosen by God, and it means they have mistake in their belief of what God wants. It's no different from somebody wanting their loved one to live, and God disagreeing and the person passes away. So next time you hear that reinterpret it as "wow I must be doing something right if God wants the same thing I want".

Can I also interpret it as “wow, I must have really fucked up if God wanted the total opposite of what I wanted the last time around?”

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#279

My Dad had a cardiac arrest at 70. And consequently deprived of oxygen for 10+ minutes. My Mom did all she could with chest pumps waiting for paramedics. This kept him alive so he made it to hospital. When I saw my Dad, a few hours later, his eyes were glazed over, pupils dilated, unable to make sort of recognizable sound, just soft nightmarish screams, and stretching out his arms like he wanted to get away. I though…

As a counter story I once attended a talk given by an A&E consultant who was a bit dismissive of the trend for putting in defibrillators everywhere, such as at sports stadiums. He said that by the time someone had rushed to wherever the device was kept, retrieved and used it, it was likely that, at best, you'd be looking at the casualty surviving in a persistent vegetative state. Incidentally, someone asked about hav…

I don't get it. Aren't A&E people in ambulances reaching for the defibrillator themselves? And don't the automatic defibrillators allow for a much faster response time in the case of fibrillation, lowering the chance at brain damage and the like?

I mean I don't know how often people end up needing one of those in real life and I'm pretty sure it's some weird conspiracy by the manufacturer(s) of that device, but still.

Re: I Lied When I Said We Did Everything We Could

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a dual or two-aspect irony at the center of modern culture in the West. The ironies - both negative - are the following: (1) An increasing, intentional aversion to one's own death and the death of others. Instead of living life in full awareness that you and those you care about are all dying (in some sense), our culture runs from the prospect of death through various forms of distraction, etc. This adolesce…

Facing one's own mortality carries a tacit knowledge of death that can't be got by other means. It's one thing to think about it intellectually, to sort of turn it around in your mind. But it doesn't give you a sense of death. I can tell from your treatment of it that you haven't. And that you hold up this sort of deeply personal interaction as a demonstration of some problems you believe you've identified with an en…

Hold your horses a bit, you can't make such blank statements about somebody who you don't know at all. People are so vastly different and unique inside that what works for you and defines you might have little to no meaning to next guy. What you consider an important marker of some aspect of personality might be lacking elsewhere, yet the aspect itself might be very well there.

Psychedelic drugs can give you perspective on, well almost everything that nothing else in western culture comes even close to. Or might not, as said we are so unique that no blanket statement can express the truth.

As for me, doing some rather extreme sports puts me to situation with imminent fear of death (ie climbing hundreds of meters above ground, used to have strong vertigo all my life), that one becomes well-aware and content with it. Maybe not every climber, but definitely me.

If I experience my parents/life partner passing in my hands, it will be a tough moment. But I will manage it, no doubt there. Same goes for rest of close people. If you expose yourself to extremes, you become familiar with how you react to them, and also in managing them.

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