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Studying the demise of historic civilisations

bbc.com

271–280 of 359 posts

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#271
post #259
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Loot of course takes many forms, gold, silvers, the work of serfs, the work of slaves Gas, oil, fresh air, ...

And cheap labour in countries with lower worker/human right standards

Low paying jobs in developing economies have to be considered in the context of existing alternatives. If a Vietnamese rice farmer's son previously had only daily hours of backbreaking labor to look forward to on his father's paddies for what amounts to a dollar worth of earnings per day (only paid when they can finally sell the rice after many weeks of toiling) and then one day American McShoe Factory opens in the nearest city offering 3 dollars a day paid biweekly, this is a move up in the world. He'd willingly redirect his physical capacity for the job and trade it voluntarily for the money. Is this ideal? No, and to the labor market sensibilities of people in developed countries it could be seen as "looting" of workers but in relative terms, it's a previously unavailable, voluntarily chosen improvement for the farmer's son.

Yes, human rights have to be seriously improved in many countries and many companies offering jobs in developing markets really need to clean up their worker rights standards, but on a fundamental level, we can't simply compare a given economic change to our ideal of how things should be (because ideals are not limited by any practical constraints). We have to compare it to existing and previous alternatives.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#272
post #20

The US lasted 243 years. Is it the oldest modern nation? I wonder, how will the modern nations different from the ancient ones?

it is not, case in point: Great Britain

I think judging by the oldest extant constitution (or other equivalent legal document), the US is the oldest.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#273
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think a King George Washington would preside over a young America as affluent as President George Washington did. Tyranny has a way of sequestering innovative spirit.

Here's another thought experiment. Take the Russian communist revolution of 1917. Had Lenin been an American and the coup/revolution been american... Do you think that by the late 20th century, the US and Soviet Union's positions would have been reversed? I don't think we can really answer that, but to me, "yes" feels like an old fashioned answer. I don't think a founding philosophy or constitution (or anything reall…

Lenin was sent by Germany and financed by Germany.

The only thing that Germany achieved was a peace on Eastern Front. After that Lenin decided to incite a revolution (or two) in Germany and we all know what happened in 1941.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#274
post #194

Many of these great "empires" were simply extended looting machines, once they ran out of looting opportunities they collapsed in the same way that a Ponzi collapses when it run out of new "investors". While things were good, it was all golden, glitter and glam, and many tall buildings. Loot of course takes many forms, gold, silvers, the work of serfs, the work of slaves, monopolies on trade routes, monopolies on tra…

I think that's a bit reductionist. Highly recommend reading the Muqaddimah (one of the first sociology books) which talks of a natural cadence to power: http://www.politics.ankara.edu.tr/dergi/pdf/39/1/13_barbara_...

Nietzsche also delves into some of these ideas when he describes the rise and fall of civilizations as a by product of decadence. This decadence is not just the simplistic notion of "consumption", but rather a weak moral system that arises as a result of decadence. It is not consumption, but rather the morality of consumption: https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/5avje6/what_...

Looting machines (like companies) required skill, fearlessness, and capital to build.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#275
post #32

Does it seem to anyone else that they have conflated "civilization" and "political entity" for lack of a better term? Serious question. It just seems that a lot of entries on this list are actually part of the same civilization. In the same way that I would consider the Spanish Empire, the British Empire, and the American Empire to be really all a part of the same Western Civilization. But maybe my thinking is totall…

I agree. Sumerian civilization is reasonably constant from the earliest writing until the conquest by the Persians, if not longer. I'll bet Chinese scholars would agree that China is similar---the same civilization through many changes of governments.

I note the author is affiliated with the Centre for the Study of Existential Risk.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#276
post #196
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They share their origin in the same political entity, but have clearly different cultures and developed in different directions. The collapse of the Western Roman Empire had a massive impact on Western Europe. There's also the medieval Holy Roman Empire which was officially a continuation of the Western Roman Empire, and at odds with the Byzantine Empire because they considered themselves the only legitimate Roman Em…

This reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday with one of my daughters about species, specifically Homo Sapiens, but generally as well. She was asking who the first Homo Sapiens was. I suggested that if there was such a person, if an anthropologist had been there they wouldn’t have seen anything special happening. The way they would have categorised hominid species would depend on the populations they saw at that…

Continuity existing between separate categories doesn't mean categories are arbitrary nor artifacts of language. For example adults and children really are separate categories for many important purposes yet there is never a single day when a child becomes an adult.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#277
post #8
post #2

Is it true to say that China is the longest surviving civilization? They seem to think that Shang and Zhou are different civilisations? Instead of a continuity as they like to call it in China. There are good reasons why they should be considered continuations because they shared a similiar script for writing.

Zhou defeated Shang, but the culture is inherited like the Chinese Characters. Dynasty usually in China doesn't category as one civilization, it is just a episode in the Chinese history. And this is not a modern invention either, China has the great tradition of 修史, literaly meaning the making of history, which means the later dynasty is responsible of recording the official history of previous dynasty, and by doing…

I note that the author groups the 25-odd Egyptian dynasties into the three traditional empires.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#278
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday with one of my daughters about species, specifically Homo Sapiens, but generally as well. She was asking who the first Homo Sapiens was. I suggested that if there was such a person, if an anthropologist had been there they wouldn’t have seen anything special happening. The way they would have categorised hominid species would depend on the populations they saw at that…

Continuity existing between separate categories doesn't mean categories are arbitrary nor artifacts of language. For example adults and children really are separate categories for many important purposes yet there is never a single day when a child becomes an adult.

Categorizations can be useful definitely, but we need to bear in mind they’re not definitive or absolute. The underlying reality is primary, not the categorization, but it’s easy to get it the wrong way round.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#279
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that Stalin believed 2+2=4 doesn't invalidate math by association with mass murder. Do you have a reason to suspect GP is in fact maliciously trying to push fascist ideology? Because that's what your comment implies, and does not hide it well.

I should probably have bothered to write more but was on mobile. Anyway, the core of the OP arguments are (a) "Too many rich, old, soft people who now have settled and moneyed lives", (b) "I think you need a good war to refresh a country..." and (c) "sacrifice" (twice) (a) is not an uncommon sentiment, but usually leads either to to the "fully automated luxury communism" argument that everyone should lead lives of lu…

Wow, hah, I had no idea my thoughts were so historic and grounded in fascism. Semi-serious, semi-humorous to realize.

And you know, the reason for me writing was sparked merely by yet another story about the mundane problem of America's inability to build new infrastructure, or even maintain existing infrastructure.

Maybe I shouldn't have added the last sentence, some took that too seriously.

Re: Studying the demise of historic civilisations

#280
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday with one of my daughters about species, specifically Homo Sapiens, but generally as well. She was asking who the first Homo Sapiens was. I suggested that if there was such a person, if an anthropologist had been there they wouldn’t have seen anything special happening. The way they would have categorised hominid species would depend on the populations they saw at that…

Continuity existing between separate categories doesn't mean categories are arbitrary nor artifacts of language. For example adults and children really are separate categories for many important purposes yet there is never a single day when a child becomes an adult.

That's an excellent analogy. How a society differentiates adults and children, is often more a reflection of societal norms than it is an objective biological distinction.

Similarly, analyses like these cannot help but be a reflection of the society that produced them. This article features a callout in the middle with weirdly axis-ed charts about climate change, inequality and environmental degradation, it's difficult not smirk knowing that within the context of our current society, there was no way it could be otherwise. One wonders 50 or 150 years ago what the cultural bugbears were and what the callout in the middle of the page would have featured. Overpopulation? Nuclear war? Out-of-wedlock births?

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