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Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#271

Post by PunchTornado »

mgbmtl wrote: post #112
thaumasiotes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of salaried Google employees have family members too. If a woman is promoted over a man in the name of gender equality, are his three daughters better off because of the new equality? Are "women" better off?

I don't see how that is relevant. We should not take into account the size of dependant family members. In our field, our jobs should be flexible enough to accommodate anyone, with paid leave, sick leave, flexible schedules. We should also end gender/race/etc discrimination, and that means being more proactive about getting our culture to change, which often means having some affirmation action in order to break the…

the issue is when do you stop that affirmative action. and if you pay lower level women engineers more to offset male managers pay and reduce your gender pay gap than I think you're doing it wrong. and this pushes people to the far right. I've seen it countless of times

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#272

Post by FartyMcFarter »

rootusrootus wrote: post #231

I keep telling my wife she should learn Python and become a developer. Women are highly valued in tech right now, at least in corporations of any significant size.

I suppose that is one way to give someone imposter syndrome...

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#273

Post by fzeroracer »

ben509 wrote: post #244
fzeroracer wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying there are biological differences that are preventing women from entering the software industry? Because historically the trends of CS grads proves this is a false statement [1] so I'm curious where this statement comes from. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when...

All the talk of discrimination against women requires that they be helpless damsels in distress in all this, when their dominance of college graduation suggests the opposite. Biology is not "preventing" women, it's directing their inclination. Women have a ton of opportunities, and it's just as likely that as CS blew up they decided they didn't want to and didn't need to take on the long hours and relative social iso…

No, it does not require women to be damsels in distress and to suggest that is to be highly disengenous. It requires discussing greater trends in terms of what career paths women are considering and general industry trends. Women may be a majority of college grads, but that says very little about what they choose to major in, what states they're located in and so forth.

And making biological arguments without any sort of citation or statistical inference is illinformed. You haven't explained what exactly caused the trend reversal in the 80s other than an incredibly strained appeal to biology, which also mischaracterizes software engineering as a whole. Professional engineering is hardly a socially isolated career.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#274

Post by roguecoder »

sorum wrote: post #202
rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

> 57% of college graduates are women What's the percentage female graduates in STEM fields? The 57% may not be representative for the fields which matter for engineers. Not saying the delta is big, I honestly don't know and am curious.

Between 2004 and 2014 women received 50.4% of undergrad degrees in STEM fields.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#275

Post by mrkstu »

organsnyder wrote: post #250
mrkstu wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectual capacity- programming requires a certain ability towards abstract thinking and logic that a minority of the population is comfortable with. I actually believe a greater percentage of the population, by far, is CAPABLE of this, but very few choose a path that gives them a self idealization that they believe they can or want to be a computer expert of any sort.

I'd argue that the skill-set to be an effective teacher is also not prevalent in the general population. This includes not only intellectual capacity (effective pedagogy is hardly a cakewalk) but also the emotional intelligence required to manage a classroom.

I think it gets back to self-image. Many many women can 'see' themselves as a teacher. Relatively few imagine themselves in a career in tech.

This is very much a cultural issue- the messages women receive from their media sources rarely contain reinforcement towards technical excellence.

This is a frustration for technically oriented men, I believe, because we aren't directly the source of this disparity- I think the vast majority of STEMish career men would welcome more women into the fold as true peers, but are somewhat aggravated by messages that we are somehow directly responsible for large cultural forces we have little/no power over.

Its been positive to see more girls get into sports as that message has permeated into the culture. Hopeful an equivalent message about women and STEM will percolate into the larger collective id.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#276

Post by nostromo »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #247
rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. My daughter who is finishing the primary school has recently asked me if it's okay if she doesn't like math, but likes animals and babies. Sounds like some pressure is being applied...

Or maybe sexual differences cause men and women, on average, to have different interests.

edit: thanks for pointing out that I misread which type of pressure is being applied.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#277

Post by nitwit005 »

rfinney wrote: post #215
rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

"non major liberal cities" I think the "me too" thing proved the coastal elite were part of the problem.

It'd be perfectly accurate to say that San Francisco has discrimination against homosexuals, but people are still relocating there to avoid the discrimination where they are. Some places are enormously better than other places.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#278

Post by brewdad »

rhegart wrote: post #227
roguecoder wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you assuming the women are below average? Though even if they were, maybe they are making a premium because they aren't adding sexism to their workplaces and exposing their company to the legal liabilities you are.

Because their grades were average, they are friends and I’ve helped them. Are you threatening me? Is it because I’m making sense and instead of offering a counter argument you resort to this? Well luckily for me I’m my own boss, I’m on a forum which let’s me discuss ideas with many members who I know are far smarter than me in every field. Maybe a counter argument here makes sense, convinces me, and brings me more to…

If a comment from a psuedo-anonymous stranger on the internet pushes you into radical misogyny, you were already there and looking for justification of your abhorrent views.

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#279

Post by EForEndeavour »

roguecoder wrote: post #274
sorum wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 57% of college graduates are women What's the percentage female graduates in STEM fields? The 57% may not be representative for the fields which matter for engineers. Not saying the delta is big, I honestly don't know and am curious.

Between 2004 and 2014 women received 50.4% of undergrad degrees in STEM fields.

This figure is higher that those cited elsewhere in the discussion thread. Could you provide a source?

Re: Google Moves to Address Wage Equity, and Finds It’s Underpaying Many Men

#280

Post by fullshark »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #247
rhegart wrote: post #154

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. 57% of college graduates are women. Men are not only getting the short end of the stick but are being told by every voice that they are privileged, it’s their fault, they are bad whereas women have sooooo many extra programs and positive reinforcement to succeed. No one with a straight face can tell me women in entry level…

High school, college, any STEM fields are all overwhelmingly biased in terms of favoring women. My daughter who is finishing the primary school has recently asked me if it's okay if she doesn't like math, but likes animals and babies. Sounds like some pressure is being applied...

In which direction?
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