Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030 • Hacker News Board

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#271

Post by Doctor_Fegg » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:12 PM UTC

reacharavindh wrote: post #80

jimmaswell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

I wrote the comment you responded to. I live in Denmark, and here is my take on this. It's not as extreme that I'd call it "extremist state of affairs". Fewer cars are for the greater good. However, what pisses me the most is how it is really implemented. There is the famous 150% tax when you buy a car, and then there is a green tax every 6 months/quarter that is based on how efficient &a safe your car is. I'm all fo…

> It lead to too many small cars(VW Up, Seat equivalent, and the like) because that's what common people can afford

Slightly confused - what's the issue here? Small cars are good. They take up less street space and tend to be more economical. My wife owns a Fiat 500 (which is about as small as you get); it's much easier to park on the narrow streets of our rural town than a bigger car would be, its fuel consumption is stellar, and it's no bigger than we need.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#272

Post by floatrock » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:15 PM UTC

Necromant2005 wrote: post #263

Electro cars are great, until you start count. Ok, if Denmark population is about 5.7M and based on aerostat ( https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... ) there're around 500 cars per 1000 citizen. It means country holds ~2.5M cars right now. In general (based on https://www.worlddata.info/europe/denmark/energy-consumption... ) every Denmark's citizen consumes 20kh per day. 1 of 2 citizen has a…

Yes you need more electricity but that’s offset by reduced gasoline. And you lower your total energy consumption because electric cars are 3-4x as efficient.

Yes, this requires more energy infrastructure. But note that in the US the majority of new generation capacity added in the last few years has been renewable. And it’s not because we’ve passed any carbon tax, it’s because it’s now the most cost effective form. The bean counters love it.

And of that new generation capacity that is wind, the largest manufacturer of wind turbines is Vestas, a Danish company.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#273

Post by snowwindwaves » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

indemnity wrote: post #246

netcan wrote: post #65

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now. I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an op…

In my country (New Zealand) the fuel tax goes into the infrastructure fund which keeps roads maintained. It also funds public transport. We’re going go have to come up with creative solutions when most vehicles are electric.

In NZ Diesel vehicles have to pay a tax per km driven but it is not paid at the pump. You buy a sticker that says what odometer reading you have paid up to. Get a fine if odometer reads higher than sticker.

Same mechanism can work for electric cars

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#274

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:29 PM UTC

netcan wrote: post #65

At the start, I thought these announcements and laws (eg Scotland) to ban ICE vehicles by 20XX were cheap politics. A promise Someone Else will deliver later, with credit due to you now. I've come around though. I think all the bastardized carbon accounting, market based solutions are on average quite bad. The idea of a neutral, "market decides" policy is a myth. These things are complex, and that compmexity is an op…

A side effect, intended or not, is that poorer people who can not afford new and more efficient cars end up paying more for the fuel and more for the tax.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#275

Post by jimmaswell » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:37 PM UTC

pedrocr wrote: post #227

jimmaswell wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a tax a subsidy if you personally find it too low? I find it completely worthwhile "subsidizing" personal vehicles. Everything else just feels oppressive in comparison (barring scenarios like bicycling being faster than the gridlock in Manhattan). Quality of life seems much better to me not being forced into transit or having to bike everywhere, so it makes sense to me for the government to invest in it. How big w…

> 98 Ford Escort ZX2 to a Jeep Grand Cherokee and the handling is just as good if not better Unless the Escort was broken this seems too rose tinted a view. Large SUVs like that may be comfortable but they definitely don't handle well.

What are some specific things that should feel different? Turning, merging, accelerating (especially with overdrive off) all feel great. Turning radius isn't bad at all. Only thing is you can't take tight corners super fast unless you want to flip over.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#276

Post by lagadu » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #187

woobar wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that people hold on to cars longer and buy used more And yet the average age of the car in Denmark is 8.9 years [1]. For comparison Germany is at 9.3 year, and US is at 11.6 years [2] [1] http://www.aut.fi/en/statistics/international_statistics/ave... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/261881/average-age-of-li...

The two sources is different, so it might be good to be wary about comparing them. Could be right though. But anyway, these average ages may be due to little used old cars being taken out of registry, to avoid annual fixed taxes? This has not much impact on the average age of cars used in daily traffic. FWIW, I'm from Finland, also with a history of high car purchase taxes, and the average in above data is almost 12…

The max rate was lowered from 180 to 150 about 2-3 years ago.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#277

Post by jimmaswell » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

jopsen wrote: post #215

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the whole nation of Denmark, 26% of all sub-5km trips are by bike. In Portland, the US's most celebrated cycle city, 6.3% of commuter journeys are by bike. It looks to me like Denmark has it right; and that taxing polluting vehicles (you know, there's this thing called climate change?) is perhaps a better strategy than sneeringly calling them "clown cars".

Also it means less congestion on the roads, because there are fewer cars. If most middle class families can get by with just one car, maybe that's good for everyone. Note. Today cheaper cars and high incoming means many families have two cars.

Less people able to afford groceries would mean the grocery store was less crowded, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#278

Post by petermonsson » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

Necromant2005 wrote: post #263

Electro cars are great, until you start count. Ok, if Denmark population is about 5.7M and based on aerostat ( https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php... ) there're around 500 cars per 1000 citizen. It means country holds ~2.5M cars right now. In general (based on https://www.worlddata.info/europe/denmark/energy-consumption... ) every Denmark's citizen consumes 20kh per day. 1 of 2 citizen has a…

The last coal plant in Denmark will be retired in 2028.

Current regulation requires large district heating to produce electricity (which is no longer economical due to abundance of cheap wind power) and this delays the conversion of the last coal plant.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#279

Post by mattlondon » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 8:50 PM UTC

Annatar wrote: post #134

mattlondon wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same people who footed the bill for petrol/gas stations? I.e. commercial operators who want to sell you coffee/snacks/flowers/other high-markup items as well as fuel/energy. Added bonus for EV: longer dwell time while waiting for a fast-charge means more likely to spend spend spend (perhaps)

"Same people who footed the bill for petrol/gas stations?" That would be me, and I don't want to foot that bill, because at a gas station I can fill up the tank in under five minutes, and at a recharging station I'd have to wait a minimum of half an hour, so I wouldn't be getting the same level of service as I do today. As far as my wallet and especially my time (which is far more expensive) are concerned: no!

I guess you'll need just need to get the bus when you cant get a fossil fuel vehicle any more. Good luck.

P.S. 350kw fast chargers are typically being advertised as zero to 80% charge in 15 minutes - cars that can accept these chargers are due in the next couple of years from Audi, Ford, BMW et al so mainstream "ordinary" cars as well as exotica like Porsche. I cant find any stats online, but I have read that the average time someone spends filling up with fossil fuels is 7 minutes, so an extra 8 minutes is not that outrageous and even that is zero to 80% - if you had say 20% remaining I'd imagine that the time would be in the order 10-12 minutes (guesstimate)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#280

Post by amluto » Wed, Oct 03, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

secabeen wrote: post #133

amluto wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. I'm not sure I agree. I could easily imagine a range of carbon taxes applied to vehicles where most, but not all, users would switch to electric. There could easily be people who like taking long trips far from major roads and are willing to pay a large premium to do so. >…

The advantage of a ban is that you can also eliminate production and importation. If you have a legal path, that path will be diverted into the black market.

Black market cigarettes, sure. But black market cars? Cars are already individually registered and tracked by the states. You can’t just magic up an illegally imported car and get away with driving it for very long.