Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks • Hacker News Board

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#271

Post by Draiken » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

dsnuh wrote: post #208

Draiken wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I agree. But in the context of this article, we're talking about small projects. So I wouldn't expect the need for an on-prem setup. In fact I've used Kubespray[1] to setup a cluster with Ansible before with mild success. Nothing production ready, but it's actually a good tool for that job. At the end of the day you can't run Kubernetes on Kubernetes :D [1]: https://github.com/kubernetes-incubator/kubespray

I really think that all Kubernetes related posts and articles need a footnote - "Kubernetes allows you to scale simply!"* "Kubernetes takes minutes to set up!"* *When using GKE or another managed service.

Honestly I cannot refute that!

Haven't had the experience myself outside of GKE so I can only imagine the complexity of it.

It is a young project still. My guess is that with some more time this will improve.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#272

Post by Draiken » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #237

Draiken wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, you could do that in almost the same time on Kubernetes. I understand why people might not want to invest the time onto learning a new technology, but that's not a reason to say it's a bad fit. If you know how to use Kubernetes, doing these bash scripts and doing a few YAML files will take basically the same time and the end result will be vastly superior on Kubernetes.

Good luck setting up an email server on kube. Or a git repository for that matter

I would say: good luck setting up an email server anywhere

Really not sure what Kubernetes has to do with this argument though.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#273

Post by yebyen » Mon, Oct 08, 2018, 8:01 PM UTC

Annatar wrote: post #267

yebyen wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I apologise, I thought that was a fair question and civil... The missing context from another comment was: > ... amount of institutional inertia I've come up against while trying to get any part of our Development or Production stack shifted over to Kubernetes, which I consider myself fairly expert in, I think you'd understand that "containers on Solaris" is not going to go over any better for me than containers on G…

You didn't accuse me of working for Oracle; your coworker implied it, but it also shows how little she or he is versed in the subject matter: the very reason top Solaris kernel engineers work at Joyent is that they vehemently oppose the Oracle corporation; it's that same reason why OpenSolaris was forked into illumos, from which SmartOS is built. Please let your coworker know my answer.

That is the answer I was looking for. And also shows what I know, as I just learned that SmartOS is not the same as OpenSolaris. (Thanks!)

> I‘m against object oriented programming.

I just went back and read your profile again. Just wondering, what do you support instead? (At a guess I'd say functional programming?)

I've often heard and suspected for myself after gaining some "industry experience" that the Object-Oriented principles taken by themselves without a strong lead designer who is vocal about (his or her) strong opinions and willing to call out bloated, poorly thought-out designs... will simply tend toward generating a Big Ball of Mud, or "Shanty-town" code.

Is this generally how you feel about the subject? I think we'd probably get along well and I'd certainly like to hear from you again.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#274

Post by Annatar » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 4:02 AM UTC

yebyen wrote: post #273

Annatar wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't accuse me of working for Oracle; your coworker implied it, but it also shows how little she or he is versed in the subject matter: the very reason top Solaris kernel engineers work at Joyent is that they vehemently oppose the Oracle corporation; it's that same reason why OpenSolaris was forked into illumos, from which SmartOS is built. Please let your coworker know my answer.

That is the answer I was looking for. And also shows what I know, as I just learned that SmartOS is not the same as OpenSolaris. (Thanks!) > I‘m against object oriented programming. I just went back and read your profile again. Just wondering, what do you support instead? (At a guess I'd say functional programming?) I've often heard and suspected for myself after gaining some "industry experience" that the Object-Ori…

I'm against object oriented programming because the code written in that way is needlessly complex and unmaintainable. Experience taught me that procedural, respectively the functional approach produce code which is easy to understand and therefore debug and maintain.

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#275

Post by subhajeet2107 » Tue, Oct 09, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

geggam wrote: post #84

solatic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> using it for anything less than dozens of machines is overkill The question isn't really whether you need dozens of machines, it's whether you can foresee eventually maybe needing dozens of machines. Remember the bad old days when people said that relational databases were worthless because they "don't scale", that using Mongo and other NoSQL databases were practically a necessity for doing anything modern and "web…

The question isn't really whether you need dozens of machines, it's whether you can foresee eventually maybe needing dozens of machines. Kubernetes doesnt manage the machines. It manages the applications on machines that are managed with something else. You have to do something else to manage the machines

cluster-autoscaler can mange the machines easily, the point is kubernetes is an abstraction layer, using this level of abstraction is upto the user itself. Should i keep going down with container or using the node itself is the question, in production environment it makes all the sense to use something which has the potential to scale infinitely, but for hobby projects mental overhead doesn't justify using k8

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#276

Post by Annatar » Wed, Oct 10, 2018, 6:41 AM UTC

yebyen wrote: post #147

Annatar wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" A virtualization solution is not a containers solution. Wait. Wait wait... I'm wrong, aren't I? From a quick google, it looks like Solaris Zones are almost exactly like containers in this way." Yes, and they are true containers: fully functional UNIX servers, running at the speed of bare metal, because the OS is virtualized and not the hardware. I was running zones back in 2006 when project Kevlar first came out. F…

Well I work in higher-ed IT, where we don't make money sheepish grin and if I told you the amount of institutional inertia I've come up against while trying to get any part of our Development or Production stack shifted over to Kubernetes, which I consider myself fairly expert in, I think you'd understand that "containers on Solaris" is not going to go over any better for me than containers on GNU/Linux, a kernel and…

"I can't see ever switching to SmartOS unless it had a vibrant packaging community"

SmartOS has close to 15,000 packages and growing[1], because it uses NetBSD's pkgsrc, which is also used by FreeBSD. Since the Joyent engineer responsible for this is also a pkgsrc developer, pkgsrc now has full upstream support for illumos / Solaris based operating systems. It also means that SmartOS has full access to FreeBSD's software library, which is a wealth of software: unless it's Linux kernel specific or extremely badly written, pretty much anything you can imagine on GNU/Linux is available on SmartOS. For those few isolated cases of badly written software, one can always run a Linux (lx) branded zone inside of SmartOS at bare metal speed[2][3].

[1] https://www.perkin.org.uk/posts/building-packages-at-scale.h...

[2] https://wiki.smartos.org/display/DOC/LX+Branded+Zones

[3] https://docs.joyent.com/sdc6/working-with-images/list-of-sup...

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#277

Post by Annatar » Wed, Oct 10, 2018, 6:57 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #255

Annatar wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're here to avoid pre-existing agendas, then Docker and Kubernetes promotional articles tick every box on the "tedious" agenda. The best part is, the article is about "no thanks" to Kubernetes, which I wholeheartedly agree with and have stuck to commenting relevantly to the topic, backed up by plenty of citations.

Perhaps those articles are tedious, but that's changing the subject. The point is that users who show up to grind the same axe in thread after thread are lowering the signal/noise ratio of the site, so we moderate them, and ban them if they won't stop.

It's not so much an axe to grind as it is a fight for better working conditions. If you had to go look for a job, and all everbody ran is this shitty Kubernetes and Docker, how would you feel being forced to work with that when you knew something better is available, but you couldn't find a job using it because everyone runs Linux, Docker and Kubernetes, because they don't know any better? How would you raise awareness about better alternatives with the goal of creating better working conditions and better jobs?

Re: Kubernetes for personal projects? No thanks

#278

Post by parasubvert » Wed, Oct 10, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #119

acjohnson55 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To learn, or to utilize on an ongoing basis? I'm curious what you found difficult, because since remapping my mind to 12-factor years ago, I still haven't found anything as simple as just using Heroku.

I only used it once or twice, so to learn. Every time I have had an EC2, Rackspace equivalent or other server I knew what I was doing and other than what felt like some minor stuff. I guess its kind of related to the comment that people didn't like not being able to tinker with the box. (It kind of felt like a black box to me, far more difficult to debug than a "normal" server).

A lot depends on where and how you work. If you are responsible for development and end to end operations down to the VM, K8s and Docker make a ton of sense.

If someone is doing that for you, ie. roles are separated, or you don’t want to take it on and prefer to outsource it, then a higher level abstraction like Heroku makes more sense. Debugging is different (still possible, just different from if you owned the full box).

This split also accounts for why AWS Lambda is growing in popularity (and debugging is probably its main gating factor).