The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.” • Hacker News Board

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#271

Post by Spivak » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

JTbane wrote: post #52

ryandrake wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If libraries were invented today, that would be immediately killed by the copyright and retail lobbies.

It's funny to imagine publishers making the case against them- "You're gonna just let people borrow books for free!? How will I turn a profit?" It's also kind of sad that this logic is so prevalent with regards to software, films, music, etc.

They're not incompatible at all. Libraries aren't given any special provision when it comes to copyright. Physical copies of media are single transferable licenses -- whether it's a book, tape, CD, or DVD. And when libraries buy digital books they negotiate a license with certain number of seats where patrons check out a license when they download a book -- exactly how a lot of commercial software is licensed.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#272

Post by Spivak » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 7:35 PM UTC

djhworld wrote: post #221

Sharlin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I read a library-related discussion on HN, one of the sentiments expressed was basically ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” Boggles the mind. There was also a bizarre comment about libraries being only funded to keep a bunch of otherwise useless civil servants employed.

> ”I download ebooks, why would anyone need a library?” The "I'm alright jack" mentality

Let's phrase it another way. If all you care about is information access you could replace libraries with country-wide digital catalogue of media and software, a program to subsidize the cost of computing devices and internet for people with low-income, and some public internet cafes.

This doesn't at all capture what libraries actually do but the argument that we could be doing information access better and cheaper really just comes down to how the numbers come out.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#273

Post by sixdimensional » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 7:35 PM UTC

probably_wrong wrote: post #88

chris_mc wrote: post #2

If you think libraries are useless, try going to one a few times and talk to the staff about the services they provide. I'd personally say libraries are one of the government organizations with the best return on investment, because education and information are almost invaluable. I'll fight a war over libraries, no joke.

I visited Vancouver's public library last year. The library offers wifi, internet computers, professional computers exclusively for stuff like Photoshop, recording booths, musical instruments, organizes weekly events and, of course, books. If all you have is this library and time, you could pick up an instrument, learn how to play it, record a weekly podcast/vlog with your progress, edit the video, upload it to Youtu…

Yes, this is exactly how I feel.

Libraries and the services they offer can be an instrument for people to bring themselves out of poverty and for people to be able to grow and advance through education.

I personally think of it like this - if I didn't have a job, where would I "go to work every day"? If I didn't have an income, and I couldn't get a job, I could go to a library. And a library could be the key to me finding a job, or work, or making it for myself.

A library is a positive place to go with something to do, when otherwise, maybe I would have nothing, which can help me.

My personal desire is not to disrupt libraries, but instead the opposite - to actually extend what they do until it gives even more people a chance to start their own business, find their own careers, or simply learn and educate themselves for work or pleasure.

Lest we forget, that library science is the foundation of information science!

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#274

Post by 24gttghh » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 7:36 PM UTC

chris_mc wrote: post #2

If you think libraries are useless, try going to one a few times and talk to the staff about the services they provide. I'd personally say libraries are one of the government organizations with the best return on investment, because education and information are almost invaluable. I'll fight a war over libraries, no joke.

I'll be honest and say I don't go to the library very often. But, I too will fight alongside you to protect libraries.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#275

Post by sixdimensional » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 7:36 PM UTC

trgn wrote: post #256

epalmer wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My oldest daughter (26 years old) works at a library part-time in circulation. In December she will get her masters and be able to become a librarian. Libraries are more than books, they are maker spaces, community spaces, learning pods and so much more. We are bullish on libraries. However, libraries have to keep updating their services and offer community engagement services.

It's a beautiful profession too. There's several librarians in my family across 3 generations, and they all love their work. I think it's something about helping people, in a calm, welcoming environment, the work is a real good fit for bookish but social people.

How does one become a librarian? I've thought about it my whole life. It almost feels like the vocation I've been called to but never realized.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#276

Post by nojvek » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 7:38 PM UTC

“I refuse to accept that everything must be “disrupted” and turned into a moneymaking machine for tech elites. It’s absurd to suggest that Silicon Valley look to profit from one of the few institutions available across the entire country that doesn’t exist to make money for someone else.”

This is a powerful stamenent. Love it!

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#277

Post by obelos » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 7:41 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #134

geebee wrote: post #12

I'm largely in agreement with this Vox piece, but I think there's much more to say in defense of libraries as well. I have a friend who found a red envelope with some money in it in a book that he'd checked out of the library. He figured it belonged to whoever had checked the book out earlier, so he went into the branch and mentioned it. They said that they could find out the last person to read the book, but no more…

> librarians (at least in that system) deliberately avoided keeping long term records of what people are reading, to safeguard privacy rights. Are you sure that's true? I mean, my local library (like most, I'm sure) has a fully digital checkout log which keeps a pretty decent amount of state for active records. A pretty reasonable architecture, given the size (small) of the system, would simply keep this data around…

Privacy is such an ubiquitous concern for librarians that most ILS software offers automated, time-based purging. Set it up once and it just happens without any staff intervention.

n.b. My company creates and manages library software.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#278

Post by epalmer » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

sixdimensional wrote: post #275

trgn wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a beautiful profession too. There's several librarians in my family across 3 generations, and they all love their work. I think it's something about helping people, in a calm, welcoming environment, the work is a real good fit for bookish but social people.

How does one become a librarian? I've thought about it my whole life. It almost feels like the vocation I've been called to but never realized.

A masters in Library Science or equivalent is almost always required. Typically (from my casual research) people are hired that have other prior library experience and can show a lifelong love of books. New masters degrees (master in information science at Fla State for example) have an ability to have more exposure to UI design, media creation, digital metadata and more.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#279

Post by timwaagh » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

so american libraries are actually free then? where i am they are not.

merely cheap. they get used as internet cafes with a bunch of bookshelves gathering dust. getting books is something that has already largely been replaced as the most useful books are the ones they do not have. yes the service is primarily used by poor people. also by me. but i am pretty sure the market can fill the gap of 'internet cafe'. in fact i'd love it if one opened up here again.

i am not sure whether i like subsidizing librarian salaries and especially maintaining a useless librarian education program with my tax pay. I just dont think its justified to send people to school for four years to learn for this.

also their opening times are sub-par because it is the public sector. privatisation would benefit me, as they'd quickly realize internet cafes would need to stay open in the evening. right now they just outcompete private internet cafes. not because they are cheaper, but because they have superior marketing presence, paid for with tax.

i have nothing against librarians. like the author says they are usually nice people who are indeed quite willing to help. i am sure the trade will continue to exist, just like we still have postmen internet cafes would still need attendants to help people use the computers and the printer.

Re: The last thing libraries need is Silicon Valley “disruption.”

#280

Post by tingletech » Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

neuromantik8086 wrote: post #244

As someone who works in an academic library (which has very different needs from a public library), while I would disagree that libraries need "disruption" (which conjures up imagery of a librarian shushing me in the stacks for talking), there is a real need for tech talent. Most techies are lured away from programming for libraries by the private sector, which leaves us with an overabundance of clunky, expensive sof…

The academic library is a weird environment to be a programmer in. Tenured/tenured tracked (or quasi-academic, as the case may be) librarians think of you as a para-professional librarian rather than a professional in your own right (and call you "techie").

On the one hand you have MARC21 (originally designed for printing catalog cards), and on the other hand MARC is supposedly being phased in favor of many competing flavors of RDF. The academic library fetishizes standards built on esoteric technology.

There are a lot of fun projects though, and as a programmer I get the feeling that I'm really making an impact. (I'm not on a campus any more, more of an academic library consortium).

I do think (hope) that Open Access initiatives will eventually disrupt the high costs of licensing academic publishing (the academy pays for the research in the first place, and then pays a second time to get access to it again). If research products were open, then there would not be a demand for something like Sci-Hub. Even when you consider ILS and OPAC migration projects, the on-line collections budget dwarfs the technology budget in libraries.