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Alternatives to Google Products

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Re: Alternatives to Google Products

#271

Post by TheCabin »

robbrown451 wrote: post #209

So I'm one of those who doesn't care if Google tracks me or sells me as a product. [ * ] Is there actually some real, tangible harm that can come to me from using Google products? Not theoretical stuff, not stuff that is less likely than dying in a plane crash. Something that is actually likely to happen, that will affect me in measurable, negative ways? I'm really trying to come up with something, and I'm really try…

Okay, let’s think about some side effects of having lots of potentially sensitive data nicely stored at one location:

* Propaganda: Because you understand what people need to hear, it’s a perfect tool to influence opinion. Of course, this doesn’t happen in your country (it never does). A recent popular example is the Cambridge Analytica scandal. Thankfully this evil cooperation does not exist any more (by changing its name).

* Reinforcement of monopolies: You need to hit a critical mass to use data effectively. Therefore, big players will have an advantage over competitors and can provide better products. Therefore big players …

* Reinforcement of dictatorships: If things turn bad they turn really bad. User data is gold in the hand of dictators. One reason is that is helps with propaganda, but it also helps to identify resistance. If for some reason your country ends up in a regime, it is going to be hard to get out of it.

* Self-censorship / freedom of speech: There is plenty of evidence, that we constrain ourselves because we know nothing online is anonymous. This also depends on which country you live in.

There must be a plethora of side effects I didn’t think of right now.

You have to decide how “theoretical” these issues are for you. Maybe it is more a thing of “believing” – such as vegetarianism (although we all know eating meat is bad for the environment).

Re: Alternatives to Google Products

#272

Post by cm2187 »

mtgx wrote: post #156
lev99 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was strange bing was not mentioned, even though it has Mozilla's endorsement of having a better privacy policy than Google[0] and is probably the most popular alternative to search in the United States. This far from a complete list of Google alternatives. [0] https://www.pcworld.com/article/184520/mozilla_endorses_bing...

That was in 2009 - Windows 10 probably wasn't even a project at that point, for instance. I doubt Mozilla would recommend Bing over Google again because it's more "pro-privacy."

I think the point is not so much pro vs anti privacy. On the web you have to assume every site is anti privacy, and you may have some rare pleasant surprises. To me the point is rather to spread that trail of data among multiple providers that are not known to sync their data.

Re: Alternatives to Google Products

#273

Post by shawn »

halflings wrote: post #267
shawn wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google has what I think is the most transparent and user friendly controls for visualizing what personal data is collected, and disabling it (most often per product, for ex. disable location history and YouTube viewing history, but enable personalized ads). I don't think this stops Google from collecting your viewing history. If it did, Youtube recommendations wouldn't work at all, because they would know nothing abo…

The second link I posted allows you to explicitly disable search and viewing history on YouTube, which also disables recommendations (at least those based on your profile; you will still get recommendations after watching a specific video).

Fair enough, though that would require me to sign in.

Does that actually prevent the data from being stored on Google's servers? I'd like to believe that the data isn't being vacuumed up regardless of what the user says, so if you're willing to vouch for it then that would mean a lot.

Re: Alternatives to Google Products

#274

Post by pakitan »

deadcast wrote: post #54

I've enjoyed fastmail for many years as an alternative to gmail. I've never once had any issues with them and their UI has been very responsive. They also give you a MASSIVE list of domain names to choose from! ^_^

How is their spam filtering. For me gmail really does an outstanding job in that regard and it's hard to beat them.

Re: Alternatives to Google Products

#275

Post by bobsoap »

blub wrote: post #220
robbrown451 wrote: post #209

So I'm one of those who doesn't care if Google tracks me or sells me as a product. [ * ] Is there actually some real, tangible harm that can come to me from using Google products? Not theoretical stuff, not stuff that is less likely than dying in a plane crash. Something that is actually likely to happen, that will affect me in measurable, negative ways? I'm really trying to come up with something, and I'm really try…

Has it become some sort of fashion statement to be ignorant about privacy? Whenever I discuss this topic people seem to almost take pride in giving their information to Google, Facebook and the thousands of other companies they have no clue about. I think it's cognitive dissonance rearing its ugly head again: those people have tied their identity at some level with the use of the products and an attack on e.g. Google…

I find I'm having trouble arguing in a meaningful way with people who don't share the same concerns regarding the privacy of their data. I'm running out of arguments - no matter what I say, they'll respond with a shrug.

"So what? I don't have anything to hide."

"So what? They are a big company, surely they won't abuse my data."

"So what? How has Cambridge Analytica affected me?"

And for the ultimate capitulation: "So what? They already have so much data on everyone, you can't avoid it anyway."

Brave new world.

This is not only coming from folks with little understanding of tech, but also from "technologically literate" people who should know better. Sticking your head in the sand is just so damn convenient.

Even a comparatively widely reported privacy scandal like FB's can't seem to sway these folks... apparently because they feel like it hasn't affected them personally.

How do you deal with this kind of attitude?

Re: Alternatives to Google Products

#276

Post by giancarlostoro »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #143
miguelrochefort wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I like Microsoft, Bing is awful. Ive used it, and I tried to like it. It can't find anything.

I use Bing a fair amount and I like it. I'm wondering if you could elaborate on what sorts of things you are trying to find and having trouble with. Perhaps HN could make a few suggestions for how to get more out of your Bing experience.

I've tried switching to it but for looking up code and projects it kinda sucks. Even when I throw hints at it sometimes it just doesn't seem to care. I'm using DuckDuckGo instead for now.

Re: Alternatives to Google Products

#277

Post by bartread »

_emacsomancer_ wrote: post #197
joesb wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't check if the server actually runs that reproducible builds.

Right, that really only helps for local binaries.

Even then, it might work well for you, and if I had the patience or the time it could work well for me, but it'll never be of any use to my mum or my brother, neither of whom are technical.

Re: Alternatives to Google Products

#278

Post by robbrown451 »

probably_wrong wrote: post #262
robbrown451 wrote: post #209

So I'm one of those who doesn't care if Google tracks me or sells me as a product. [ * ] Is there actually some real, tangible harm that can come to me from using Google products? Not theoretical stuff, not stuff that is less likely than dying in a plane crash. Something that is actually likely to happen, that will affect me in measurable, negative ways? I'm really trying to come up with something, and I'm really try…

I think the average worst thing that could happen is that you end up going to court against someone (since we are thinking about averages, I'm thinking divorce), they obtain your data, and use that to build a case against you. If you were cheating, for instance, your location info could be used to show all your meetings in quite some detail. And even if you weren't, you can always bend your stats a little bit to make…

So how would this happen? Google gives them my data? I'm sorry but I don't get it. Google can't do that. Even if they work at Google they can't get it.

I just represented myself in a week long custody trial (I won primary custody, and yes I went up against an attorney), and there were lots of risks involved, but this sort of thing seems to be about the smallest one I could imagine.

I'd like to hear if this has actually happened to anyone anywhere.

Re: Alternatives to Google Products

#279

Post by cm2187 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #143
miguelrochefort wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I like Microsoft, Bing is awful. Ive used it, and I tried to like it. It can't find anything.

I use Bing a fair amount and I like it. I'm wondering if you could elaborate on what sorts of things you are trying to find and having trouble with. Perhaps HN could make a few suggestions for how to get more out of your Bing experience.

It’s a matter of taste but I prefer the Apple/google clean and white UI with little else distraction than what you are trying to achieve over Microsoft’s “portal from the 90’s/let’s fill every bit of space”. Whether it’s bing or Windows, something as stupid as showing you a different background picture every time means you always have to deal with a new visual, which means more effort to find your way. It’s the same for IE and edge, the default new tab is to show you a busy page with news, weather forecast, most visited stuff. That’s like advertising banners to me.

Re: Alternatives to Google Products

#280

Post by sam_goody »

mirimir wrote: post #97
flafla2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't have the data that Google et al has. All of the ML that apple does for example is done on-device or is privatized [0]. This goes for all of their services that Google has built their business off of: Messages, Siri, Maps, etc. People don't respect Apple's security because they trust Apple, they respect it because Apple has intentionally shot themselves in the foot if they wished to sell their data in th…

> Apple doesn't have the data that Google et al has. Huh? Apple potentially has everything on the device, just as Microsoft does. Maybe they don't touch it, at least intentionally, out of respect (or just prudence). But if I recall correctly, they accidentally logged all Safari URLs for a while.

Chrome has search and url in the same bar, and therefore needs to log all urls you enter (and their metadata) for the sake of logging all searches. Absolutely benign, right?

Safari shares the same url/search bar, but I have not read their license. Would be pretty surprised if they are not logging all URLs.

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