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Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

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Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#271

Post by Twisell »

eertami wrote: post #228
DavidAdams wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Volvo's messaging is less reckless than Tesla's. They call their similar feature "Pilot assist." It's also always been stricter about trying to make sure the driver is engaged when it's enabled. As a Volvo owner, I'll admit I find it annoying at times, but I think it's also helped drill into me that I shouldn't trust Pilot Asssist not to drive me into a barrier. It's amazing at keeping me in my lane when I'm fiddling…

>It's amazing at keeping me in my lane when I'm fiddling with my podcast feed though. I hate to be sanctimonious at people online but this is how people get killed. Is it not illegal to do this where you live? In the UK you'd be half way to losing your license if you got caught touching a phone while driving (and lose it instantly if within the first 2 years of becoming a qualified driver). You just said it yourself,…

He didn’t mentioned a phone however... it’s 2018 people that can afford that type of car must have podcast friendly onboard entertainement. Which is as dangerous as radio fiddling but not illegal.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#272

Post by southern_cross »

rightbyte wrote: post #181
fapjacks wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to preface my post to say that I think developing self-driving automobiles is so important that it's worth the implied cost of potentially tens of thousands of lives in order to perfect the technology, because that's what people do; make sacrifices to improve the world we live in so that future generations don't have to know the same problem. But I think you're right. I think the "best" way to move forward unt…

Thats kinda Volvo Cars approuch, word by word, as one of their RnD engineers explained it to me.

IIRC, it was also Volvo who a few years back said that they would gladly take on any liability issues for their self-driving cars. Only to backtrack on that a short while later after having learned what liability laws in the U.S. actually look like, saying that they wouldn't take on such liability until the laws are changed to be more in their favor. So there's that ...

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#273

Post by loceng »

kzrdude wrote: post #246
Phrodo_00 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it might imply otherwise, the message is clear about the _hardware_ being ready for self-driving. That doesn't mean the car is capable of self-driving in general.

Doesn't help, the message they are sending are misleading customers and that's irresponsible.

Does messaging get clarified any if combining it with the messaging of always requiring the driver's attention?

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#274

Post by thebluehawk »

matt2000 wrote: post #15

The thing that sometimes gets lost in the debate around Tesla autopilot (IMO), is that it's possible for self driving cars to be theoretically better than human drivers, AND that Tesla's implementation of that concept to be overall worse. From the recent accidents it seems clear that Tesla autopilot is just not that great in it's current form. Even if it's following a line that it mistakes for a lane marker, how is i…

Autopilot is not an implementation of self-driving cars... You have a completely wrong understanding of this system.

It's basically cruise control that has some lane keeping abilities. If you put your (non-TACC) car in cruise control on the freeway and then ignored everything around you, you will rear end someone, and it's not cruise controls fault. If you put a lane-keeping assist car (like Tesla or others) and completely ignored the road, it will crash eventually. AutoPilot is cruise control with some lane keeping abilities, it is not self-driving. You choose when to activate it (just like cruise control), and every single time you do it tells you to pay attention and keep your hands on the wheel.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#275

Post by omega3 »

fmihaila wrote: post #79
NickM wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're trying to hammer home the point that autopilot is very much not level 5 self-driving. The media is constantly referring to "self-driving" Teslas, so of course it's easy for members of the public to get confused, but this is very different from e.g. the Uber self-driving fatality that occurred recently, where the car was supposed to be able to drive 100% autonomously. Tesla is extremely clear that thes…

> Tesla is extremely clear that these are only driver assistance features Promoting the system with the name 'Autopilot' is, to my mind, quite a bit less than extremely clear communication. This name provides Tesla's critics with a constant line of attack, which will continue right up until they reach level 5. I consider myself a hardcore Tesla fan but I think they've botched their messaging, and this latest statemen…

Are you really suggesting that highly educated software engineer got "confused"?

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#276

Post by Robotbeat »

Fricken wrote: post #267
Robotbeat wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percent of commercial pilots also fly with a copilot? Additionally, I'm not a professional driver, I don't have any autopilot on my car, but I've definitely briefly fell asleep while driving late at night. What do you think rumble strips are for? Such an extremely low number of (but extremely highly publicized) fatality is not reason enough to say autopilot is a net negative. In fact, the extreme media focus tha…

In the article I posted it mentions that of the 56% of pilots who admitted falling asleep, 29% also admitted to having woken up to a sleeping copilot. There is no path from Autopilot as it is to full autonomy without doing a major shift in strategy. Google figured out very early on that the incremental approach is unfeasible. Most of the other big car companies at the outset were intending to develop autonomy increme…

Why aren't major shifts in strategy possible? LIDAR may become very cheap (i.e. $1000, much less than drivers paid for the full self-driving package). Improvements in radar may also help. Requiring much lower speeds (driving like a Waymo grandma) and specific conditions (i.e. dry, well-lit, well-mapped) are also feasible.

As the technology improves, conditions can be relaxed for full self-driving.

The very fact that in this case, the driver had multiple problems with this same spot, and that other drivers also noticed problems in this area, points to an obvious mitigation strategy: flag problem areas geographically for autopilot, develop specific strategies that address the problem, and verify it has been fixed by examining how other Teslas on the road in "ghost" mode (i.e. with the human driving but the software pretending to self-drive) respond to the changes.

Tesla, due to its massive and well-connected fleet, has a lot of tools in the toolbox to address these problems, in some cases more than Google (although I agree Waymo's self-driving capability is currently more impressive).

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#277

Post by danso »

Ryudas wrote: post #247
Dwolb wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla need to stop calling it 'Autopilot'. The name implies drivers don't need to drive and is most likely a big reason drivers are lured into a false sense of security.

I find this argument so often. Autopilot has never been a term for autonomous, just as its used in aviation. Just because people don't know the proper term or have an erroneous idea of the term, doesn't mean tesla has to have the burden of people misinterpreting what it says.

Do you believe Tesla bears the burden of maintaining its own homepage? tesla.com/autopilot currently has "Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars" as its top headline and has had that for awhile now.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#278

Post by Dylan16807 »

CPLX wrote: post #268
lorenzorhoades wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a key point that will result in the freedom of being able to drive being stripped long before assault rifles. Imagine if i create a private road from SF to LA and say that only self driving cars can drive on it. The vehicles on this road are all inter-connected, allowing them to travel at speeds in excess of 150+ MPH, and since the road that i've created is completely flat it still allows it to be a…

The thing you're describing is called a train.

Are you going to having a train running every few minutes to really make the delays comparable?

And you need a fleet of rental cars so that people can actually get to their destination.

What's the relative cost of all that vs. pavement?

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#280

Post by keepper »

Ryudas wrote: post #247
Dwolb wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla need to stop calling it 'Autopilot'. The name implies drivers don't need to drive and is most likely a big reason drivers are lured into a false sense of security.

I find this argument so often. Autopilot has never been a term for autonomous, just as its used in aviation. Just because people don't know the proper term or have an erroneous idea of the term, doesn't mean tesla has to have the burden of people misinterpreting what it says.

Uh, yes, they do.

See, I'm not sure if you know this... but most people are not Pilots.. ( disclaimer, I'm not only a programmer, but also hold an A&P and avionics license, as well as a few engine ratings ).

It is ABSOLUTELY on a manufacturer to make sure their potentially life ending feature, is not named in a way that can confuse the target audience. You know. NON PILOT car drivers.

auto means "by itself, automatic"...

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