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Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

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Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike these absolutist arguments. It ignores any sort of context or nuance and generally shuts down discussion. In general, I understand and sympathize with your line of reasoning, and championing of free speech. However, I think you are going too far. Consider HN: we have down votes, comment flagging, and moderators. That is very much the policing of speech. Would you consider this oppression?

I dislike these absolutist arguments. It ignores any sort of context or nuance and generally shuts down discussion. In general, I understand and sympathize with your line of reasoning, and championing of free speech. However, I think you are going too far. Absolutist argument? Where do you get that? Who's being absolutist? What evidence do you have that I don't have "a line?" Do you have any evidence that I support p…

> Authorities, especially institutions of higher learning, shouldn't be in the business of policing their student's speech. That's not "culture." That's oppression.

I considered that to be an absolutist argument. I think there are contexts in which authorities (EDIT: non-governmental authorities) can police speech in a way that is not oppressive. And not just the usual "shouting fire in a crowded theater" sense. If you are using a public forum to be disruptive and is detrimental to the other students, it can be appropriate to levy some sort of disciplinary action. If you start shouting racial epithets in a crowded theater, for example, I think it is appropriate for you to be thrown out. So the line is not clear cut, there is a level of subjectivity at play.

> So are you basically saying it's okay to engage in partisan thought and speech policing of political viewpoints of graduating high school seniors by trolling through their social media?

In this case, the students posted the offensive material on a public forum moderated by Harvard staff. I wouldn't consider this "trawling through social media".

> I don't get instantly excluded for voicing an opinion. Instead I get feedback. There's the difference.

So if Harvard had put these students on academic probation or something instead, you wouldn't necessarily have a problem? That's something I can get behind. I thought you were opposed to any action being taken against these students of any kind.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but on the other hand, membership in the priesthood implies a direct responsibility for the wellbeing of those in your pastoral care, and a degree of authority, derived from one's position, which can be abused to do great harm. I'm not really sure what there is about being a freshman at Harvard that merits the same extent of scrutiny.

Every Harvard student has a shared responsibility with every other student for the quality and tone of the community as a whole. Harvard cultivates a very specific type of community. These candidates signaled to Harvard through their actions that they are not conducive to the community Harvard is trying to cultivate (whether true or not).

But I think this behavior is nothing new. It is just revealed in a persistent form when you put it on a chatroom with your name next to it. One hears about this kind of stuff everywhere, all over the world. It fits the stereotype of the entitled rich white guys from the ivy league, but it's also not that uncommon in the non-ivyleague world. Yes, its unacceptable to share this publically, or with coworkers.

But that's a pretty huge penalty. High school kids do stupid shit. There are some people there who lost their admission who probably were very lucky to get into harvard, who don't have 10 other ivy league schools to go to.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#273

I'm so conflicted right now. On the one hand, yeah, that shit is offensive and I'm not too keen on elevating a person who makes jokes about sexual assault or violence against minorities. On the other hand I'm terrified at the creeping surveillance society that has institutions examining all of our utterances for "wrong speech", which is much too close for comfort to "wrong think", which is much too close for comfort…

Dystopian fiction has given so much terrorizing weight to the concept of "thoughtcrime" and "wrong think" that I think people forget how much positive effect a culture can have on widespread mindsets and stopping ignorance. There are some ignorant thoughts that have almost entirely fallen out of the collective consciousness (in terms of serious belief, not abstract discussion of the past). (As a random example, there…

I agree with much of your thought, but we've seen just now in the US that members of the republican party basically believe if you get sick and didn't earn health insurance on your own, you deserve to die, which is effectively the same thing as "disease is a punishment of the wicked" (or poor).

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#274
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But making that shit turn up everywhere just normalizes it. People start seeing those things and agreeing with them, no matter how "ironically" he intending them to be taken. Ideas like "let's get Donald Trump elected for the lulz" have real-world effects. "It was just for laughs, mate" isn't really a good excuse. At a certain point, it approaches "watching the world burn" territory.

> Ideas like "let's get Donald Trump elected for the lulz" have real-world effects. Do you have statistics to back that claim?

I'm not making a claim either way on the idea that Donald Trump was "meme'd into office" as has been claimed elsewhere.

My statement is that attempting to get someone elected president just because it would be "funny" to see that person as President has real-world consequences. At some point these things go beyond being "just a prank" regardless of how effective they are at actually accomplishing their goal. Were they to actually accomplish their goal, it would have real-world consequences beyond just providing more fuel for their image board meme battles.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's more clear, but you're still talking in pretty broad generalities. Let's focus on the concrete case here: if you were Harvard staff, and people were posting these things on your incoming freshman forum, what actions would you take? I get your point on proportionality of response, but it's not clear what you think would be a fitting response to this incident.

Sure, let's do that. Leaving aside all questions of whether or not this falls within Harvard's disciplinary remit - we'll assume that it does - I would have these students begin their academic careers at the school on disciplinary probation, which I gather is contemplated within its policies on maintaining an acceptable standard of conduct among students. Disciplinary probation, from what I've been able to find in a…

OK, I think I understand your position better then, and largely agree. I'm curious: could you imagine a situation where expulsion would be warranted for these students? Like if they continue to engage in this behavior after being put on disciplinary probation?

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You stated the exception without justification. You need to give an actual argument for why discrimination should be an exception but free speech shouldn't. Free speech has historically been considered an extremely important right. In fact, free speech is a civil right--one of the originals. Why shouldn't it be included under your civil rights exception?

The civil rights movement itself exposed the need for specific legal protections for minorities, because leaving it all up to the "marketplace of ideas" only ensures that patterns of systemized oppression continue. What happens when you don't restrict along protected grounds is that entire industries collude to exclude those classes of people. Mass hatred drowns out the whole marketplace.

And right now the entire university education industry is colluding to suppress certain types of speech; an incident like this could happen at most universities, not just Harvard. So why doesn't freedom of speech also deserve specific legal protection? You still haven't justified treating freedom of speech differently from freedom from discrimination.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dystopian fiction has given so much terrorizing weight to the concept of "thoughtcrime" and "wrong think" that I think people forget how much positive effect a culture can have on widespread mindsets and stopping ignorance. Authorities, especially institutions of higher learning, shouldn't be in the business of policing their student's speech. That's not "culture." That's oppression. Using bad actions in the service…

> So what you want is authoritarian control of speech. Nope. Say anything you like. Learn to live with the consequences, which can and should include rejection by widespread parts of civilized society, and bask in the solitude. The crickets will surely enjoy your free speech. You shouldn't go to jail for it, but you can't demand that other people like it.

Nope. Say anything you like. Learn to live with the consequences

Having found that much of the modern world has quite effective protections for free speech and free association, authoritarians have learned this "one weird trick" to hide their activities. Here's the dishonest trick: Just because it's not in the set of rules enforced by city, county, state, and federal officials, then it's not censorship. That's the same as saying that anything you do is OK, so long as it's not against the letter of the law somewhere.

The whole point of free speech is to prevent authority from chilling dissent and coercing fake-agreement through fear and power. How does it matter if that sort of thing is happening through non-government organizations? Our country and most of the western world has a long history of oppressing groups largely through such non-government oppression. The manner in which homosexuals were oppressed is almost the same manner in which you would like your political views enforced. Do you know what people used to say about this? "You shouldn't go to jail for it, but you can't demand that other people like it."

You shouldn't go to jail for it, but you can't demand that other people like it.

There were laws against homosexuality in the western world, but the societal enforcement mechanisms were operating with far more frequency in the 20th century. There were laws suppressing black people, but the instances of societal enforcement mechanisms were far more frequent than arrests. Far more people read the posted sign or subtly got the funny vibe than were arrested. In many places where there were no specific laws against being Jewish, there were many, many instances of people being excluded from the best connected clubs and social circles on this basis. What you want are these kinds of societal enforcements operating, but on the basis of your particular ideas of what's right and wrong. So long as no one is being injured or killed, and no state "monopolizers of violence" are at play, then it's okay.

It's not okay. If you are trying to force instead of convince then you are being a crappy, oppressive person. History is full of such people, most of whom thought they were doing right. In the same way, history is full of crappy violence, committed by people who thought they were fighting for justice. Thankfully, civilization has made progress, and we are now in the process of groups giving up violence as a means of enforcing their will. Similarly, we as a civilization are better understanding that groups of people using other forms of societal pressure to enforce their will short of violence are also oppressive. What you are advocating is that same kind of crappy non-consensual illusion of agreement, and justifying it because governments aren't doing it, and because in your mind, it's "might for right."

Convince, not force. Consensuality should be at the core of any 21st century intellectual's morality, and true consensuality is never begrudging.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specifically noted the civil rights exception in my comment.

You stated the exception without justification. You need to give an actual argument for why discrimination should be an exception but free speech shouldn't. Free speech has historically been considered an extremely important right. In fact, free speech is a civil right--one of the originals. Why shouldn't it be included under your civil rights exception?

Free speech has historically been considered an extremely important right as against the government. It's never been considered part of the accept all commers obligation of places of public accommodation.

It's a false analogy. A restaurant turning away a would be customer because he's black isn't the same thing as a restaurant turning someone away because he's wearing KKK regalia.

The words 'free speech' aren't a magical talisman. You have to explain how they actually apply, and in this case they don't.

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