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Guaranteed Minimum What?

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Re: Guaranteed Minimum What?

#271

Post by dragonwriter »

dredmorbius wrote: post #270
drxzcl wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Productivity is usually value/worker or value/hour worked. There's no indication, as far as I'm aware, that value (inflation adjusted money) is a conserved quantity. In fact, most of the productivity increases are in industries where the value produced is not directly coupled to the resourced consumed. The software industry is a great example.

Not only is value a conserved quantity, but value must decrease on a full accounting, through the process chain. That's the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Corollary: accounting of costs, prices, and values is badly flawed.

> That's the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Thermodynamics does not address value.

Re: Guaranteed Minimum What?

#272

Post by cbanek »

ensignavenger wrote: post #267
cbanek wrote: post #4

> Humans are agressively being eliminated from as many business models as possible. Well that's true, where they don't add value. What's the difference between the case of getting movie tickets and your waiter at a fancy restaurant? One of them is practically a useless annoyance, and the other one is part of the experience. Someone in a movie box isn't going to tell you about the movie, or have a conversation about i…

While I agree with your statement on the movie theatre ticket counter, I would say that I enjoy talking to the cashier at walmart. I usually ask how they are doing, I might ask about their name if it is an interesting name, or complement them on something. Some cashiers end up being short and don't seem to want to talk, but I often have great interactions. Granted, Walmart pays more than minimum wage, but I don't thi…

I think it does, actually. In-N-Out burger pays more than minimum wage, and I'd say it's some of the best customer service at a fast food place. Paying that bit more means they can be choosy and pick the best people.

Re: Guaranteed Minimum What?

#273

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

justinator wrote: post #185
cbanek wrote: post #4

> Humans are agressively being eliminated from as many business models as possible. Well that's true, where they don't add value. What's the difference between the case of getting movie tickets and your waiter at a fancy restaurant? One of them is practically a useless annoyance, and the other one is part of the experience. Someone in a movie box isn't going to tell you about the movie, or have a conversation about i…

You write as though you've never held a minimum wage job. Have some compassion for those people who are working hard for almost nothing. Sometimes, it isn't their first choice, or it's their only choice. I would suggest a better experience is had when you give respect to the (say) service industry worker you engage in a transaction with.

That was not the point. Bluntly, I don't care whether the employee benefits; I, the customer, don't like talking to them and would prefer a machine. Want humans in the loop? Have them do something that they can actually do better than a machine.

Re: Guaranteed Minimum What?

#274

Post by Frondo »

darpa_escapee wrote: post #22
cbanek wrote: post #4

> Humans are agressively being eliminated from as many business models as possible. Well that's true, where they don't add value. What's the difference between the case of getting movie tickets and your waiter at a fancy restaurant? One of them is practically a useless annoyance, and the other one is part of the experience. Someone in a movie box isn't going to tell you about the movie, or have a conversation about i…

> Someone in a movie box isn't going to tell you about the movie, or have a conversation about it with you. They are there to take the most basic info (movie, time) and money, and give you a ticket. It's also always done thru a thick bit of glass that makes communication sometimes difficult if not painful. This has not been my experience at all. People who work at theaters get discounted, if not free, tickets to movi…

"Speak for yourself. There is nothing more aggravating to me than self-checkout, it is slow, ... "

Oh, man. I never use the self-checkout. It's part of the invisible work movement--stuff someone used to be paid to do for you, now you do yourself. Same thing with pumping your own gas. I miss Oregon, for how there was always someone to pump your gas for you. Is gas cheaper here in Washington, where you have to do it yourself? Nope. Invisible work. Screw that.

Re: Guaranteed Minimum What?

#275

Post by MawNicker »

zanny wrote: post #198
nfriedly wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What would keep Amazon from adjusting to this Obviously not much. The point I was trying to make was that a small player probably can't compete with Amazon on price, but they may be able to compete some other way.

Is it even a problem if they can't compete with Amazon on price? Generally the reason to fear monopolies is abuse of market capture for profit. If you own all the corn, you can set the price. But Amazon doesn't own all the commerce - it just undercuts everyone. But that is a win for consumers until Amazon tries to exploit its position. But the moment they do that, right there is where you can undercut Amazon. If they…

As you've described it, the consumer's "win" is determined by Amazon's competitors. Every private advantage Amazon has serves to undercut the profits a competitor would need to develop their own productivity gains. Those are the gains that would actually show up for consumers. How are they winning?

Re: Guaranteed Minimum What?

#276

Post by orthecreedence »

fahadkhan wrote: post #20
atemerev wrote: post #5

Guaranteed minimum income is: sustainable, sufficient for basic life necessities, can be implemented for the current population levels. Choose two. It is as inevitable as CAP theorem.

The current population is growing. Evidently there is enough resources to population at this level (food, water, space, air, energy, etc). If production of resources is automated why can't resources distributed to sustain current population?

Exactly. We have the resources. It's just a matter of redistributing them in a way that a) keeps people alive and b) doesn't grind the economy to a halt.

People in the US need to let go of a lot of the ideas we cling to (taxing the rich slows the economy, UBI is communism, wealth redistribution == USSR) if we're going to live through the coming automation boom.

Re: Guaranteed Minimum What?

#277

Post by _rpd »

funkyy wrote: post #127
chris_va wrote: post #33

I realize that UBI is a very popular position on HN, so I am hoping someone here has given this more thought and can comment. My problem with UBI is that all tests to date look great, but have only been done on a micro level. The fundamental issue I would like addressed is the macro scale inflation you would expect when redistributing trillions of dollars without commensurate economic value being created directly. Mo…

I would like to see UBI tests performed in pathological areas, or areas close-to-pathology - in real world environment without hype enforced on them.

In the "real world", payday loans type operations will be the only beneficiaries of UBI. Simply handing out money will not change the structure of society.

Re: Guaranteed Minimum What?

#278

Post by AndrewKemendo »

izacus wrote: post #170
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More accurate to say "Big companies have traditionally been blind sided by new tech..." I'm not aware of any major example of this since the introduction of the iPhone.

iPhone was built by one of the richest corporations on Earth do not sure if even counts.

This is exactly my point. It wasn't like some small time player came in and reinvented the market - a big player did it themselves.

Re: Guaranteed Minimum What?

#279

Post by dredmorbius »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #68
maverick_iceman wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big companies get blindsided by new tech all the time. Think IBM vs Microsoft.

More accurate to say "Big companies have traditionally been blind sided by new tech..." I'm not aware of any major example of this since the introduction of the iPhone.

Look at what's happening to the desktop/laptop industry.

Print and broadcaast media.

Telcos, especially wired.

Politics. News. Propaganda.

Re: Guaranteed Minimum What?

#280

Post by orthecreedence »

sparkling wrote: post #39

From Henry Hazlitts 1946 classic "Economics in One Lesson": You cannot make a man worth a given amount by making it illegal for anyone to offer him anything less. You merely deprive him of the right to earn the amount that his abilities and situation would permit him to earn, while you deprive the community even of the moderate services that he is capable of rendering. In brief, for a low wage you substitute unemploy…

Sweat shops, while convenient to those in higher economic positions, are not economically sustainable.

But, yes, let's deregulate everything so a few property owners can amass all the wealth to themselves. Great idea. Never been done before. Let's give it a shot.

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