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Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#271

Post by macspoofing »

icebraining wrote: post #252
beaconstudios wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more time goes on, the more the idea of gender roles being 100% socially constructed seems untenable. It would make sense in a world where human being are purely rational agents, but we still carry the baggage of evolution and having to survive in nature. It doesn't seem unreasonable to think that some of the specialist selections (including psychological) that have evolved into men and women would persis…

While it's certainly not unreasonable, the fact that current societies - even very equal ones - show gender roles is hardly good evidence, or makes the social construction theory untenable. All of our societies are also a continuum stretching for millennia, so it's very hard to say what a truly equal society looks like, let alone predict how people would behave in it.

>the fact that current societies - even very equal ones - show gender roles is hardly good evidence, or makes the social construction theory untenable.

Gender roles is what you would expect from a species that developed distinct genders. For example, the simple fact that hormone levels are different between genders, should strongly imply differences in behaviour which should bleed into day to day choices. The fact that one gender specializes with birth, while the other with insemination would strongly imply this difference would in some way segregate genders within a developing culture, and so on.

So I cannot imagine how the "social construction theory" could possibly be correct.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#272

Post by simonh »

nnfy wrote: post #250
simonh wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are we talking about prejudice from hostile white men in the industry? Who brought up that topic? Are you aware of studies on that? Do you have any links to them? It seems like a complete digression from the article and the thread to this point, but if you really want to discuss it I'm game. What opinion on that do you feel like arbitrarily ascribing to me? > do you seriously mean to suggest I didn't suggest any…

As I've already quoted, you suggested that the imbalance may be coming from prejudice by men against women. In a subsequent response to a comment where I pointed out the disparity between "equality" initiatives in male and female dominant industries, you dismissed my argument as whataboutism with an anecdote about your wife and said that "nobody's ignoring anything".

I said 'faced by one gender over another', because one gender faces them more than the other. No mention of white men oppressing anybody (despite all the press Uber has been getting recently ;)

But fair enough. I am not all-knowing. As you're so keen to change the subject I am happy to oblige, what gender imbalances in which men are outnumbered by women are due to prejudice and are being ignored?

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#273

Post by PerfectDlite »

ra1n85 wrote: post #18
macspoofing wrote: post #4

I've seen it argued that, paradoxically, the richer and more egalitarian a society is, the more the differences are magnified in the kinds choices individuals of both genders make. So Russia being a poorer nation with less paths to success would lead more women to make career choices based around economics, while in Sweden, a richer welfare state, economic factors may be a lower driver.

Lots of this. It's not only Russia, either, which I find to be a bizarre point of focus here. I find female colleagues are far more likely to be from India, China, or Taiwan than any western nation.

> It's not only Russia, either, which I find to be a bizarre point of focus here

That's still repercussions of calling Russia the whole USSR.

Now most post-Soviet republic are kind of shadowed.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#274

Post by cat199 »

mynegation wrote: post #57

As a Russian who got university education in Russia and worked in both Russia and Canada, I can confirm that the reasons are both cultural and economic. First, for the big part Soviet Russia did not have a sizeable percentage of stay-at-home mothers: women were _expected_ to work, childcare was absolutely free, tight living conditions made multi-generational families, when retired grand-parents took care of children,…

Not actually been - so clearly you have more experience -

but from observations of Russians I've seen I'd also say that:

a) Intelligence is strongly valued in general, with women being no exception. There is no native faux-ironic 'im a math geek nurrrg so i have to be awkward because noone understands me' or 'look at the nerd what a dork' culture..

b) Russian women aren't afraid of being strong willed, and this is also valued

c) Russian women seem to have a stronger notion of 'womanhood' and 'sisterhood' - similarly 'adulthood' and 'solidarity' are more generally valued - so hiding behind or supporting immaturity and selfishly infighting is less dominant/accepted

d) The general cultural philosophy seems more (despite bad eggs as anywhere) a focus on personal excellence and service to community/society/nation, rather than a desire for personal gratification according to abstract self-selected individual preferences

e) People call out BS when they see it, and this is considered a good thing, rather than 'being rude' or 'disrespecting everyones right to their own opinion'

So while perhaps sexist jokes and activities are allowed in some areas, in other areas actually acting on them - or letting them get to you or not calling them out in others - is dishonourable, a personal 'cultural liability' (e.g. cause for being ostracised), and to be avoided.

Of course there are exceptions everywhere, and this is observation and generalization - not an absolute statement of fact, also put with a bit of an ideal spin to underscore the argument..

I definitely would think the socialist economic system did a huge and perhaps bigger part to normalize women in the workplace and in these industries, but some of these cultural factors I think were pre existing and also help facilitate the pattern..

Some of these used to be more prevalent in US society as one example, but have been devalued over time.. So, if correct, perhaps the 'right mix' is support for women in these industries, but also a culture which values intellegence, integrity, community, and excellence rather than personal achievement for selfish reasons irrespective of the means..

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#275

Post by PerfectDlite »

vermontdevil wrote: post #229
mynegation wrote: post #57

As a Russian who got university education in Russia and worked in both Russia and Canada, I can confirm that the reasons are both cultural and economic. First, for the big part Soviet Russia did not have a sizeable percentage of stay-at-home mothers: women were _expected_ to work, childcare was absolutely free, tight living conditions made multi-generational families, when retired grand-parents took care of children,…

Wouldn't your history play a factor in this? Esp the losses of men from WW1 and WW2?

More like equal poverty for both men and women.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#276

Post by paganel »

macspoofing wrote: post #253
paganel wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That really depends on how you measure gender equality and general freedom though. Like I said, gender equality was pretty well established. "General freedom" doesn't have that much in common with equality, we can all be equal but not free. I'd say that for further reading on the matter Mona Ozouf's essays on "liberté, égalité, fraternité" is a good starting point (a related article about it in French: http://www.l…

>I know this point-view might be seen as judgemental, It is judgmental. >it's just that I see people not contributing back to society with their work-time as not giving it all Child-rearing has societal benefits. It's one of the key reasons why children from two parent-households do significantly better on average than children from one. Either they get the benefit of dual income or a full-time parent. >I've heard my…

> Child-rearing has societal benefits. It's one of the key reasons why children from two parent-households do significantly better on average than children from one. Either they get the benefit of dual income or a full-time parent.

Link to studies on that? And I mean comprehensive studies, not the ones limited to the US.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#277

Post by abecedarius »

kamaal wrote: post #207
Pharylon wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because each one of us is an island, and we're not influenced by society at all as it is. I have a two year old and I can tell you fighting against pinky-princess girl culture is a battle. As a parent, it's you vs basically the rest of society that sends a million little cues about what girls are supposed to do. I had this conversation with my daughter the other morning: Daughter: I want to be a boy when I grow…

No. That is the not real problem here. The problem is a certain things have a very high barrier to entry. Getting into such things requires over the natural amounts of persistence and other myriad life skills for which you need a certain level of biological independence(like not having kids for example). These barrier to entries vary with each profession. They are higher for the cool jobs, like the CS ones. Most of t…

Maybe it's like that in, say, game development, but I've never seen these absurd hours in my career. A certain willingness to learn and do more than the standard curriculum is valued, yes, and there's crunch mode and harder-working startup jobs, but I haven't seen this hazing and exploitation from any of my employers.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#278

Post by stablemap »

tptacek wrote: post #32
cabalamat wrote: post #13

It's because Russia isn't a particularly nice place to live. From the article: > Most of the girls we talked to from other countries had a slightly playful approach to Stem, whereas in Russia, even the very youngest were extremely focused on the fact that their future employment opportunities were more likely to be rooted in Stem subjects. They do tech because it provides a way of getting a good life. In the West, wh…

Without engaging in any of the rest of your comment, I'm going to call out again the attempt to shift goalposts from tech to STEM in general. Tech people want to believe that the gender disparity in their field is shared among all the STEM fields, but, of course, it is not: women are far better represented in other STEM fields. Computer science, physics, and engineering have similarly acute gender disparity. The rest…

I hesitate to hold up mathematics as a good example. There are an encouraging number of female majors but further down the pipeline the numbers get much worse. For tenured faculty positions the latest number [1] I've seen is 14%.

[1] http://www.ams.org/profession/data/annual-survey/

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#279

Post by mynegation »

vermontdevil wrote: post #229
mynegation wrote: post #57

As a Russian who got university education in Russia and worked in both Russia and Canada, I can confirm that the reasons are both cultural and economic. First, for the big part Soviet Russia did not have a sizeable percentage of stay-at-home mothers: women were _expected_ to work, childcare was absolutely free, tight living conditions made multi-generational families, when retired grand-parents took care of children,…

Wouldn't your history play a factor in this? Esp the losses of men from WW1 and WW2?

It would, but it was always a thing, even between the wars and long after WW2.

Re: Why is Russia so good at encouraging women into tech?

#280

Post by true_religion »

badwulf wrote: post #237
Pharylon wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because each one of us is an island, and we're not influenced by society at all as it is. I have a two year old and I can tell you fighting against pinky-princess girl culture is a battle. As a parent, it's you vs basically the rest of society that sends a million little cues about what girls are supposed to do. I had this conversation with my daughter the other morning: Daughter: I want to be a boy when I grow…

> Yes, because each one of us is an island, and we're not influenced by society at all as it is. You know what else we are influenced by? Biological traits, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism Did you think about what if she would have a happier life as a ballerina than an astronaut? There is also the fact that those who truly want something will go get it despite the headwinds.

Unfortunately, most people do not truly want one profession to the exclusion of all hardship and discouragement.

Rather peoples inclinations are varied and weak, so a society that discourages women from entering science will find more than half of women who had a weak inclination to science will simply choose the next-equal profession they were inclined to.

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