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Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

josephg.com

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Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#271

Post by stedalus »

d--b wrote: post #196

Electron is just another proof that ease of programming matters. Node.js too was a terrible idea. Who in their right mind would write server-side javascript? It turns out: pretty much anyone who didn't want to have to screw around for hours before being able to respond to a simple http request. Similarly, it is way harder to write a desktop app than a browser app. DOM / CSS manipulation, however bad they are, are yea…

Your Python example doesn't really support your argument. Python succeeded for data analysis and scientific computing in part because it provided easy access to existing numerical libraries written in C and Fortran. So you got the best of both worlds: ease of use and near-native speed. It would not have succeeded if everything was done in interpreted Python.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#272

Post by franciscop »

merb wrote: post #221
franciscop wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it depends on how much you have worked with a person who was still learning English. For me it highly depends on the kind of typos: - They're vs Their and similar normally denote uneducated native English speaker. The code might still be okay, but these typos passing to production makes me check code quality in case some similar QA mistakes are passed in the code. - Grammar mistakes normally show a foreigner for…

> They're vs Their and similar normally denote uneducated native English speaker. in germany only grammar nazi's would actually hate such things. they are too common, to say that only uneducated people do it. people who write code and distribute code to the whole world are not writers, there is no need for "perfect" grammar and typos. i mean in my first application i've written quanity instead of quantity (inside the…

Really? I have seen it in many "comment sites" but rarely see it in technical documentation and blog posts. And I don't hate that at all! I'm just pointing out that someone who makes these kind of mistake is probably native and that a large number of these typos indicate that:

- The writer didn't do proofreading (or did it but is not aware of the mistake).

- It's made by a single person with no one else to check on the documentation.

Now while they are not technically a display of low code quality, they are normally indicative of low attention to detail and lonely programming, which is not the optimal situation for high code quality. For people using English as the second language I'm a lot more forgiving since they and their coworkers might not even know how to properly express some things due to translation issues (and not due to lack of proofreading/lonely programming).

In my experience when I'm doing proofreading of my own libraries I also catch ambiguous sentences, lacking documentation or examples and many other things that could be improved upon.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#273

Post by feelandcoffee »

GrinningFool wrote: post #90
feelandcoffee wrote: post #44

I get the idea of Electron Apps having some hate for the performance. I mean if I have to open a large SQL file (> 250MB) and compare the performance between Atom and Sublime... well the difference will be day and night. But there are a few differences between Flash and Electron that are not small. I mean the first thing is, Electron is open source in a open Standard, and have a fast development cycles to fix perform…

> but I think Electron will be a interesting option to make desktop Apps something again For most of the computing world, desktop apps have never stopped being a thing.

Sorry I was vague, and yeah you're right they have never stooped.

I was thinking more in the Hype thing for new developers. You know like a small Renaissance in the Desktop UI/UX deparment, you know would be cool see beautiful desktop Apps in sites like Behance, Dribbble, etc spotting the first places, instead of the classic App with default OS UI or weird adapted ports of Mobile apps.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#274

Post by nojvek »

bhauer wrote: post #216
pdabbadabba wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, to the extent that these costs degrade the user experience, I'm not sure they really are externalizing them. Presumably they pay this cost in the form of decreased user satisfaction. It's just that this is a cost they are willing to pay. There may be an interesting economic lesson here: it really is not that easy to externalize costs. It surely can be done (air pollution), but it requires some special circumsta…

> Well, to the extent that these costs degrade the user experience, I'm not sure they really are externalizing them. Presumably they pay this cost in the form of decreased user satisfaction. It's just that this is a cost they are willing to pay. Precisely. I don't use Slack in part because its desktop application is irrationally bloated for its use-case. Although I have other reasons as well, they are enduring a cost…

By walking just one day a year than taking my car, I can offset the electricity consumed by my laptop.

You do have a point though. You make a difference where you can.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#275

Post by brilliantcode »

boskonyc wrote: post #108
brilliantcode wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because they don't need to. Our phones and computers aren't where they were 10~15 years ago. The end user doesn't even notice if an app is native or running in Electron. Given that constraint, time to market becomes crucial as the huge cross platform barrier is significantly reduced by Electron. It's also a demographic shift. Young developer's aren't coding in Java peak world anymore. We haven't even reached peak Jav…

Definitely a demographic shift. And maybe business smart: cheaper to hire and onboard web devs etc. But that doesn't mean the company and its product shouldn't be critiqued for its architecture (even more so because it is a software company).

It's a demographic shift of those entering the tech workforce. I can see someone is downvoting comments that doesn't agree with time to market being an important driver in influencing architectural decisions. This is someone who is very mature and well seasoned in Java architecture.

Software isn't just about making things fast as possible. You also have limited resources and have to make decisions on money in the bank, level of effort, engineer skillsets, competitive forces and market demand.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#276

Post by sametmax »

user5994461 wrote: post #262
sametmax wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Computing for ever. We use C to avoid writing assembly. Use Java to avoid writing C. Use Python to avoid writing Java. The world is asking for more and more software, and the resources to provide it are not following so people are taking shortcuts. Want something better ? Someone has to pay for it.

We use Java because Python proved to be too slow.

Yeah and some use C because Java is too slow. The point is, there is nothing new here, the history of computing is repeating itself. It's just now we have better toys, a bigger market and the stakes are higher.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#277

Post by david-cako »

josephg wrote: post #152
Udo wrote: post #38

It's appropriate to call Chrome an OS-like platform, and it's quite convenient to ship apps with, but it's not "Flash for the desktop". As someone who is opposed to bloat but sometimes appreciates convenience, I think Electron is getting a bad rap here for something that was screwed up by the JS app developers. Go to Electron's website and download the demo (called API Demos). It's 3 processes and consumes 0.0 CPU on…

Blog author here. Thats a fair criticism. I wanted to pick on Spotify and Atom more in my blog post, but both Spotify and Atom have cleaned up their act. I couldn't get either one to reproducibly use lots of CPU. Props to everyone involved in fixing that. But I'd also argue that Flash could always be written to be efficient too. The problem with flash was never the little games people made. The problem was that one t…

>I wanted to pick on Spotify and Atom more in my blog post, but both Spotify and Atom have cleaned up their act. I couldn't get either one to reproducibly use lots of CPU. Props to everyone involved in fixing that.

Gotta agree with the other response here. If you have shown that what would seem to be much larger and more CPU intensive applications have been able to reliably perform well, why suggest moving away from electron instead of suggesting that users learn how to use it correctly, or perhaps suggesting that electron better educate users on how to use it correctly?

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#278

Post by tonyedgecombe »

xpaulbettsx wrote: post #184
Gonzih wrote: post #61

Telegram Desktop is very good example of modern desktop client done in the most efficient way. C++ and qt, nothing else. Works like a charm an all major operating systems. Easy to install, use and update. Great stuff.

I'll give them credit where it's due, it's a great app. That being said, if you've read the source, it's not exactly the most approachable thing in the world. Also, if you're not making your code LGPL/GPL, be prepared to pay $300/person/mo for Qt Creator (seriously - https://www.qt.io/buy-product/ )

I think you only need to buy a license if you are linking statically, if you link dynamically to qt then there is no cost.

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#279

Post by vmasto »

josephg wrote: post #152
Udo wrote: post #38

It's appropriate to call Chrome an OS-like platform, and it's quite convenient to ship apps with, but it's not "Flash for the desktop". As someone who is opposed to bloat but sometimes appreciates convenience, I think Electron is getting a bad rap here for something that was screwed up by the JS app developers. Go to Electron's website and download the demo (called API Demos). It's 3 processes and consumes 0.0 CPU on…

Blog author here. Thats a fair criticism. I wanted to pick on Spotify and Atom more in my blog post, but both Spotify and Atom have cleaned up their act. I couldn't get either one to reproducibly use lots of CPU. Props to everyone involved in fixing that. But I'd also argue that Flash could always be written to be efficient too. The problem with flash was never the little games people made. The problem was that one t…

> I wanted to pick on Spotify and Atom more in my blog post, but both Spotify and Atom have cleaned up their act

Can you please share how you came to the conclusion that Spotify is made with Electron? (hint: it's not)

Re: Electron is flash for the desktop (2016)

#280

Post by andrepd »

anaisbetts wrote: post #74

Here's the thing. You know what the alternative to all of these Electron apps coming out is? If your answer is "A native Cocoa/WPF app", you are on another planet, the answer is, "It wouldn't exist at all". Nobody in the last 5-10 years cared about writing Desktop apps before Electron came along, there's basically zero money in it, and it's massively expensive, both in terms of actual dev time per feature (easily 10x…

> Nobody in the last 5-10 years cared about writing Desktop apps before Electron came along

What?... Are you saying what I think you're saying. I must be reading this wrong because surely you don't wish to imply that people didn't write desktop software before Electron came along?

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