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Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

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Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#271

Post by rimliu »

rando832 wrote: post #111
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

> If a team of hundred of engineers struggle with their codebase internally, Joe Farmer isn't going to have a fucking clue how to repair their software correctly. > But trust me on this, locking this down is a very good idea. Joe Farmer may not know, but Joe farmer has "the internet", and ability to pay an independent software engineer. And people would absolutely find and fix bugs that john deer is missing. Honestly…

May I hope that this "independent software engineer" will also test everything after his changes?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#272

Post by ska »

keyme wrote: post #221
pjc50 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.. to get sued for patent infringement. Or DMCA violation.

This is interoperability. At the very least this is a gray area.

"Gray area" here means: budget an awful lot of money for lawyers.

Doesn't mean it's not a good idea, but being naive about it won't get you anywhere useful.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#273

Post by rimliu »

tw04 wrote: post #145
throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

What, specifically, is a threat to kill people in the software? I'm sorry but that just reads like a John Deere shill here to defend the cause. We got by for literally two hundred years without magical software in tractors, and we were just fine.

What if we compare the number of people involved in producing the same amount of food two hundred years ago and today?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#274

Post by ProblemFactory »

ehsankia wrote: post #203
hristov wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow the public relations sock-puppetry on HN is getting very clever and sophisticated. I really love the green account - nice touch. It really helps your authenticity to pretend like you are afraid of retribution from John Deere when you are totally kissing their asses. Let me ask you this -- why in the world do the lines of software you write prevent a qualified mechanic from changing a transmission? You know people…

Not on either side here, but I feel like you're missing the point there. Let's say someone does modify the code, then the machine messes up and ends up killing someone. Who would be the culprit there? I guess they could have something that detects when the software is modified, but even if they did, I bet it would still be poor publicity for them (similar to when people misuse Tesla's assist and getting in accidents)…

> Let's say someone does modify the code, then the machine messes up and ends up killing someone. Who would be the culprit there?

People repair and modify their cars every day - and these are driven on public roads among other drivers and pedestrians. Farm equipment is operated on private property and among workers who are mostly aware of the risks. In the end, if the vehicle is unsafe, the driver is responsible.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#275

Post by jessriedel »

rebeccaskinner wrote: post #258
swampthinker wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like an opportunity...

I co-founded a company in this space a few years ago. We ultimately pivoted out of the space because for all of the user buy-in that we got, the legal encumbrances were way too high to be able to successfully operate without raising a lot of money just to pay lawyers. If we'd decided to go the VC route instead of bootstrapping we might have been able to make a go of it, but raising VC money for a startup in the midwe…

> the legal encumbrances were way too high to be able to successfully operate without raising a lot of money just to pay lawyers.

Were these standard encumbrances that hardware and software makers put to try and lockdown their products, or was there something special about farming?

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#276

Post by gus_massa »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #191
uuilly wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. I work in Ag and it seems crazy that someone should be able to buy a machine like those Deere sells and be able to modify the controls SW. Can United Airlines update the controls SW on Boeing 747? I'm not sure how tractors are any different.

Can confirm that United Airlines directly employs aircraft mechanics who are free to service as they see fit, and they use hardware that is not DRM'd to the plane. Can also confirm that aircrafts can do more damage than tractors if things go wrong. Like the JDs in the article that are so complex that they can steer themselves, aircrafts also do this! I don't see how tractors are any different either. So JD should cut…

From all the articles that I have read, the repairs of the United Airlines planes are heavily regulated. The mechanics can't replace a part with another unless the new part is certified, and certification is very expensive. The mechanics also have to be certified and fill a lot of paperwork.

The changes checks are not enforced by software, but by strict FAA rules.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#277

Post by RugnirViking »

lobotryas wrote: post #129
rando832 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a team of hundred of engineers struggle with their codebase internally, Joe Farmer isn't going to have a fucking clue how to repair their software correctly. > But trust me on this, locking this down is a very good idea. Joe Farmer may not know, but Joe farmer has "the internet", and ability to pay an independent software engineer. And people would absolutely find and fix bugs that john deer is missing. Honestly…

What happens if this independent fix results in a death? Do you really think JD will escape liability?

Yes, for exactly the same reason that if I overclock my intel CPU then if it starts a fire intel won't be blamed because they expressly put that if I overclock or modify the CPU settings from the factory default they wont be liable into the terms of service and unlike many software SLAs it is accepted by courts around the world

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#278

Post by RealityVoid »

bigtimeidiot wrote: post #269
tobltobs wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comparison to Tesla doesn't get better just by repeating it a few times. If your Tesla breaks down you wont have any problem to get a comparable replacement car. Much luck to get a replacement for your tractor during harvest season.

> Your comparison to Tesla doesn't get better just by repeating it a few times Your hand-waving also does precisely zero. > If your Tesla breaks down you wont have any problem to get a comparable replacement car What does this have to do with anything? I want to work on something I bought; isn't that what we're arguing about? The availability of a replacement is a straw man. Why are you apologizing for other companie…

While I think you have a valid point about Tesla's availability, this is a "Tu Coque". I mean, regardless if Tesla does/does not do it, this is considered bad and bringing Tesla in the discussion does not change nor challenge the validity of this view, only, maybe, reveal a little hypocrisy or favoritism in the audience.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#279

Post by RugnirViking »

foepys wrote: post #146
goodplay wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let people run their own software. If they kill someone, hold them liable. If deaths become endemic, then consider locking them down. As many comments on these stories demonstrate, farmers have as much valid reasons to have control over their equipment as John Deere has for preventing it. Technology is always about trade-offs. It's just that John Deere took things too far.

> If deaths become endemic, then consider locking them down. As much as I dislike John Deer's strategy, your statement is just stupid. Waiting for people do die before you regulate to make it safer doesn't work. Look at Ford who calculated that saving $x on a component was worth it if only y people die and their relatives sue.

It does and can work.

Source: The aerospace industry

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#280

Post by g12mcgov »

throwaway_jddev wrote: post #92

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

Regardless of all the negative feedback this comment has received, this is one of the reasons I find Hacker News to be totally cool.

Where else do you get an engineer who wrote the code commenting on the article in question?

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