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Tech Workers' Values

blog.samaltman.com

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Re: Tech Workers' Values

#271

Post by chimeracoder »

pseudalopex wrote: post #270
chimeracoder wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NRTW's definition of "right to work" appears to be the common definition. It's also the common definition of "open shop". Not quite, because you can have an open shop in a state that doesn't have a right-to-work law. Right to work laws only ensure that workers have the ability to dissociate from the union without losing their employment. > Minority unions can bargain only for their members -- but as far as I can te…

> you can have an open shop in a state that doesn't have a right-to-work law "Right to work" laws are also called "open shop" laws because that's what they mandate. Of course unions can choose not to collect agency fees in other states. Going back to the beginning, you claimed that unions can negotiate closed shops. The Taft-Hartley Act outlawed closed shops, NLRB v. General Motors made union shops equivalent to agen…

> Going back to the beginning, you claimed that unions can negotiate closed shops

This is a rather pedantic quibble. In the US, "closed shop" refers to post-entry closed shops, which are legal (except in states with right-to-work laws), as opposed to pre-entry closed shops (which is what Taft-Hartley outlawed nationwide).

Despite that ban, unions can still use tactics like hiring halls (even contractually mandated ones) to simulate the effects of a pre-entry closed shop, while still technically not running afoul of the letter of Taft-Hartley, but undermining the clear intent of it.

> No, those statements aren't equivalent. Plenty of other negotiations see parties authorize their representatives to agree to terms within certain parameters. Plenty of contracts commit the parties to accept the result of some process.

You're missing the point, which is that unions can compel people who never entered a contract with the union or authorized the union as their representative, as long as that person is a member of a bargaining unit for which the union has secured majority representation.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#272

Post by pseudalopex »

chimeracoder wrote: post #271
pseudalopex wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can have an open shop in a state that doesn't have a right-to-work law "Right to work" laws are also called "open shop" laws because that's what they mandate. Of course unions can choose not to collect agency fees in other states. Going back to the beginning, you claimed that unions can negotiate closed shops. The Taft-Hartley Act outlawed closed shops, NLRB v. General Motors made union shops equivalent to agen…

> Going back to the beginning, you claimed that unions can negotiate closed shops This is a rather pedantic quibble. In the US, "closed shop" refers to post-entry closed shops, which are legal (except in states with right-to-work laws), as opposed to pre-entry closed shops (which is what Taft-Hartley outlawed nationwide). Despite that ban, unions can still use tactics like hiring halls (even contractually mandated on…

I only brought up the distinction between closed shop and union shop to cite sources. You can call them whatever you like. The Supreme Court says unions can't require actual membership, only fees, and in 28 states they can't require that either.

Hiring halls are subject to the same laws. Individual cases of discrimination can be hard to prove, but patterns are hard to defend.

Federal law sets the terms of union representation. Some union members would be happy to have collective bargaining for union members and individual bargaining for non-members, but that isn't an option.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#273

Post by lazyasciiart »

damagednoob wrote: post #219
lazyasciiart wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Namely, LGBT stuff, female and minority representation, immigrant's rights, etc. offering parental leave is an excellent example of the kind of thing a union would negotiate, and is also pretty well related to how attractive a company is to women (who are more likely to have childcare responsibilities). Rules against firing someone for being gay or a different religion are a great example of something a union would…

> offering parental leave is an excellent example of the kind of thing a union would negotiate, and is also pretty well related to how attractive a company is to women (who are more likely to have childcare responsibilities). This is an excellent example of how women make different choices to men driven by the special rights that they are afforded. Giving a women more maternity leave sounds laudable but it creates a…

I said "parental leave" and not "maternity leave" quite deliberately.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#274

Post by Uhhrrr »

dredmorbius wrote: post #223
Uhhrrr wrote: post #42

One way to start "spreading high-paying technology jobs around the country" would be to advocate for distributing H1-B jobs via auction, rather than lottery. Perhaps the union could work on this!

That creates several modes of imbalance / abuse, potentially. E.g., a large and cash-rich firm could bid on more visas than it needs, starving other firms. It also fails to address the leverage that the visa sponsor has over the visa holder -- lose your job, and you lose your right to remain in-country.

Perhaps there could be penalties for non-use. But in general, the total market is so much larger than any given firm and its competitors that it shouldn't be an issue.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#275

Post by warlox »

ignoramceisblis wrote: post #235
warlox wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How you come to these conclusions based on that one statement Because that one statement is from Stormfront.

Simply for the sake of meaningful discourse, I'd like to believe there's more to this thought. But you offer little. 1. Is there proof you have of this? Or is your statement just one of "This is something I think /they/ would say."? 2. More importantly: If a statement comes from the mouth of someone you feel is unsavory, does that make the statement invalid? Is everyone who then utters that statement unsavory, and so…

I'm saying that the sentiment expressed (vacuous complaints about "wrongthink" when the "wrongthink" in question is complaints about people choosing not to associate with fascists) originates from Stormfront and their ideological brothers-in-arms. Whether he's an actual white supremacist or someone who got suckered into repeating their propaganda is immaterial.

Re: Tech Workers' Values

#276

Post by cyphar »

rhino369 wrote: post #200
cyphar wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could make the same argument about most engineering disciplines. Yet other engineers have unions, because historically they've had unions and they've worked out well. The only reason that software engineering unions aren't common is because we didn't adopt them at the beginning. Quick reminder that unions are the reason that many of the benefits you have in the workplace today are standardised across the workforc…

Do most engineering disciplines have strong unions with large membership? It doesn't seem very common in EE.

Mechanical and civil do at the very least. I generally find the electical engineers are more like programmers than other engineers.
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