Developers’ side projects • Hacker News Board

Re: Developers’ side projects

#271

Post by oelmekki » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:19 AM UTC

I encountered such clause in my contracts twice, in France. I'm glad to finally know the reason why, it just looked suspicious to me (and when I asked about it, each time I was answered: "this is standard contracts").

The two times, I asked to change it. First time I asked to mention that I keep ownership of my opensource projects, since it was what I was doing mainly with my free time.

The second time was less obvious, because I was cofounder/CTO, and I didn't really have a distinction between my "work for company" time and "work outside" time. I also was working on a side project meant to become a business. I took it that they wanted me to transfer IP to the company, but didn't want to let the ownership of my other project go as well.

So what I asked was to change text to say that company had ownership for all my non opensource code that was effectively used by the company. This gave them ownership of everything I was writing for them while at home, while still securing my ownership on my totally unrelated project (without any ambiguity possible).

Re: Developers’ side projects

#272

Post by hashhar » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:20 AM UTC

leggomylibro wrote: post #92

alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

On the first point, big companies clearly feel that they can claim any project that is related to the company's lines of work, not yours. Companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have arms for hardware design, video game development, web development, close-to-the-metal graphical programming, embedded systems, retail...that's not just big enough to drive a truck through, it's big enough for that platform they truc…

I will be starting at the job the next summer (graduating next summer) and I too thought the same. If I didn't use the company's infrastructure or their internal technology or do the work while on company time (9 to 5) - then they should not be able to claim my work.

TL;DR If you could not have built the product without being an employee of the company, it probably belongs to them.

eg. Maybe you use Microsoft's latest internal only HoloLens prototype to build a product. You couldn't have done that if you weren't a MS employee - so they can claim it. But if you used the dev kit and publicly available tech and features then they shouldn't be able to claim it.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#273

Post by Asooka » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:21 AM UTC

jbrazile wrote: post #216

I am surprised nobody here has yet mentioned the real case of what happened to Evan Brown, the former president of the Dallas Ft Worth Unix Users Group who worked at a telephone switch company as a system administrator and had an idea for a generic code translator. Maybe the New York Times tells it best: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/09/08/business/an-idea-not-yet-b...

That and the e2 article both don't mention what actually happened in the end, does anyone know? Presumably Mr. Brown liquidated everything, ran out of money and died a beggar on the streets.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#274

Post by tajen » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:27 AM UTC

bnmillar wrote: post #103

alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

A contract I was offered had this crap in it. I asked them to clarify in writing what "related to the work" means. They refused so I declined the offer.

You may be better off striking out the paragraphs, sign it, and wait and see. It's a no-fuss attempt to fix something that you/we don't think is right, and if they don't raise the point, it means they're ok with the negotiation. A few colleagues have done that, because they've had and will always have (commercial) background projects, and it worked, even though our 1000+ startup has a venerable amount of lawyers per head.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#275

Post by dustinmoris » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:34 AM UTC

This was totally biased bs. Not all companies try to own all your intellectual work and if they do then look for a new employer. And in 99.9% of cases it's super easy to understand what is related work and what is not. If your company builds an online casino and you write code for a slot from 9-5 then the next social network, airbnb or uber you do at home is completely unrelated. Only a total jerk would try to claim the right on such a side project and only an even greater jerk would try to justify it with a biased blog post.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#276

Post by js8 » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:36 AM UTC

platz wrote: post #196

sgentle wrote: post #189

I find this mindset totally disgusting, but I'm glad it's been summed up in such a concise way. > Being an employee of a high tech company whose product is intellectual means that you have decided that you want to sell your intellectual output, and maybe that’s OK, and maybe it’s not, but it’s a free choice. Let's clarify that phrase, "sell your intellectual output". Keep in mind that earlier in the article we discov…

my twitching due to self-restraint from posting marxist critiques of capitalism is ramping up again.

I was trying to explain to creative people that "intellectual property" is basically enclosure of 20th century, but they had a hard time to grasp the analogy. In both cases, it's means to create an artificial scarcity where one didn't exist before. So they are bound to repeat the same mistakes that workers did before marxism.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#277

Post by dunkelheit » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:37 AM UTC

charlesism wrote: post #215

morgante wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope nobody is dissuaded from working on side projects by this post. First of all, restricting contracts to only work related to the company's business is not unheard of (even outside of California). Every company I've worked at has agreed to that. Secondly, it ignores the abundant evidence that people successfully turn side projects into businesses all the time without being sued by their ex-employers. In fact, I'…

> Be mindful of Joel's bias (he's a CEO, not a developer). Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Spolsky has built his career around promoting a good work environment for developers. After reading his blog for many years, listening to his talks and podcasts... he's either an extremely talented thespian, or one of the most conscientious people in tech. And, while everyone has bias, I seriously doubt Joel and StackOverflow wo…

I don't think your post contradicts morgante's point at all. As soon as you start taking your side project seriously, you stop being a developer (i.e. a person selling his or her time sitting in a cushy office) and become an entrepreneur. That means his developer advocacy stops applying to you and you become his potential competitor.

Of course there are different kinds of side projects. Everyone is worried about projects that could potentially grow into big businesses or popular open-source libraries. I don't think anyone will sue you over some inconsequential code written while being happily employed by Acme.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#278

Post by yoz-y » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:37 AM UTC

dustinmoris wrote: post #275

This was totally biased bs. Not all companies try to own all your intellectual work and if they do then look for a new employer. And in 99.9% of cases it's super easy to understand what is related work and what is not. If your company builds an online casino and you write code for a slot from 9-5 then the next social network, airbnb or uber you do at home is completely unrelated. Only a total jerk would try to claim…

You have obviously never tried to find a job in France. All big companies and laboratories will make you sign a no-compete agreement which encapsulates 100% of any code you could write. Even most startups do so. It is a shitty situation.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#279

Post by ivanhoe » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:44 AM UTC

Why not just ask for a permission from the management? Drop 'em an email, explain what kind of side projects you plan and that the work will be done strictly in your free time and not interfere with you work for them. It's 99% that they'll answer it's OK, it's at that early point insignificant issue for them, and later that email response is legally binding as much as any contract. Of course, it's a smart move that you get a legal advice how to phrase the question to cover your ass properly for your state/country laws.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#280

Post by dustinmoris » Sat, Dec 10, 2016, 9:45 AM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #278

dustinmoris wrote: post #275

This was totally biased bs. Not all companies try to own all your intellectual work and if they do then look for a new employer. And in 99.9% of cases it's super easy to understand what is related work and what is not. If your company builds an online casino and you write code for a slot from 9-5 then the next social network, airbnb or uber you do at home is completely unrelated. Only a total jerk would try to claim…

You have obviously never tried to find a job in France. All big companies and laboratories will make you sign a no-compete agreement which encapsulates 100% of any code you could write. Even most startups do so. It is a shitty situation.

You are right I never worked in France. I worked at many companies and I never had anything like this in my contract. The only standard thing I get every time is to not be able to work on anything that directly competes with my employer.