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Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

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Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#271

Post by LyndsySimon »

Koshkin wrote: post #154

It is somewhat interesting that the term 'internment camps' is never used in the original quotes, it is rather 'concentration camps'. (It is possible that the latter term may have been used specifically in reference to the places of internment of the Japanese.)

I think that's because the term "concentration camp" is so heavily associated with the Nazi extermination programs. Likewise, there were Nazi concentration camps that were not designed to kill their occupants, and they're sometimes referred to as "labor camps".

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#272

Post by tankenmate »

vkou wrote: post #243
dilipd wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct! Repeatedly slapping Japan was reasonable because of Japan's imperial ambitions, e.g. Taiwan(1895), Manchuria(1905), Korea(1910) etc. And, England and some other European countries were not 'repeatedly slapped', even though they were also imperialist, may be far longer, may be far worse!

Japan was also promised the world for their support of the Entente in World War I - and, much like Italy, received nothing for its efforts. Let's not forget the context of their imperial ambitions - in the first half of the twentieth century, most of the world was still ruled by empires.

Actually Japan was mandated large amounts of German New Guinea by the Treaty of Versailles and the South Pacific Mandate; Palau, almost all of Micronesia, and parts of Papua New Guinea. Other parts of German New Guinea were ceded to Australia, New Zealand, the US, and Britain. France of course kept their South Pacific colonies.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#273

Post by dang »

petulanta wrote: post #268
dang wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm uncomfortable with some of the arguments being made here, too, but your first sentence is a rather uncharitable spin and your second one reads like a slur (though I'm sure you didn't mean it that way). Please don't comment like this here. Instead, please post civilly and substantively, and make your comments more civil and substantive on divisive topics, not less. That's the only way we can stave off a downward s…

Please name one other way you can logically interpret that statement because I certainly see no other meaning whatsoever.

"Please name", followed by an invitation to a pointless meta argument, is a troll trope. That, plus that you didn't acknowledge the civility issue here, makes me worry that you're not interested in using this site in good faith. Please review the links I mentioned.

Edit: Actually, since there's evidence that you've violated the rules of this site many times previously, I'm banning your account until we get some indication that you'll stop doing this.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#274

Post by dang »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #250
Turing_Machine wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please provide a "counter-example" where the United States murdered 100 million people. Thanks.

Easy, the mass genocide of Native Americans long before and after the ink had dried on the Constitution. You're welcome.

> Easy [...] You're welcome.

Please don't treat divisive, inflammatory topics as mere ammunition for trivial internet arguments. That's a common pattern, and it makes discussion both uncivil and unsubstantive.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#275

Post by cema »

coldpie wrote: post #90
CrossWired wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you equating Mattis to Dewitt? If so, lets not forget Mattis's approach to things: Talks to the enemy diplomatically: "I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I'll kill you all" Promotes thinking rather than force from his subordinates: "You are part of the world's most feared and trusted force. Engage your brain before you engage your weap…

I don't know about equating, but drawing parallels, yes.

They are parallel because they don't intersect.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#276

Post by kmeade »

kmeade wrote: post #255

FDR's Japanese Concentration Camps? FDR's? That's a blatant attempt to simplify a historical event and manipulate the modern reader. Please spare me another rehash of how mean we became during the GOD-DAMN SECOND WORLD WAR, when our country and culture were under REAL threat. Please spend that energy examining our modern forms of prejudice and crazy fearfulness. Also -- Why does no one ever want to rehash the post-wa…

replying to myself...

I want to make the point clear that I am not defending the Japanese internment. It was certainly an evil act. One of many evil acts committed by nations around the world. That's what war is -- a sequence of evil acts. On some level, we should be ashamed of all of them.

What I object to is the cowardly labeling of the internment camps as "FDR's" This is a propaganda technique. We've seen it recently used very effectively with Obamacare. The reality is that internment was the result of a complex series of events, concerns, and government actions. If you try to associate it with an individual, I will be strongly suspicious of your motivations.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#277

Post by chrishacken »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #270
laumars wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the insight. I don't disagree your point per se. If war could be accomplished without further harming those citizens then I might agree. Or if war brought about positive change then maybe you could justify the means. But sadly we've seen time and time again that destabilising governments through instigating war - even horrible despotic regiems like the aforementioned - usually ends up with more long term c…

In the cases of Germany and Japan, we won very thoroughly, and then re-did their government and society very thoroughly. In the case of Iraq, we won very thoroughly, and then decided that we should not re-do their government and society. There may not have been the political will to do anything else, but that turned out to be less than effective at transforming Iraq.

"To date, the U.S. has spent more than $60 billion in reconstruction grants to help Iraq get back on its feet after the country was broken by more than two decades of war, sanctions and dictatorship. That works out to about $15 million a day. And yet Iraq's government is rife with corruption and infighting." http://www.cbsnews.com/news/much-of-60b-from-us-to-rebuild-i...

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#278

Post by chrishacken »

lostlogin wrote: post #240
chrishacken wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The saddest thing about WWII is that the people who started the war, by funding it, were never brought up on charges at Nuremberg. Prescott Bush and Standard Oil made millions off selling fuel to both sides. IBM made the punch-card based catalogue service for the Nazis. Henry Ford's company made tank treads for both allied and Nazi tanks and even built the rails leading to Auschwitz. The difference is these all too…

The weapons being sold are used for atrocities fairly regularly. Pretending this isn't happening is what we do best.

I guess that can be true, depending on which conflict you're talking about. For instance, we sell Israel weapons all of the time, and one can argue that their entry into Palestine was an "atrocity", however, I'm sure if we were bombarded by missiles as they were that we wouldn't hesitate to enter and clear out a small nation of terrorists either. Obviously their execution could use some work. We're not exactly experts at it ourselves, but war is far more complicated than what you see on TV.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#279

Post by boomboomsubban »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #236
boomboomsubban wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japanese imperialism was an attempt to get out from under the boot of US imperialism. The US showed up, forced their nation open to western powers,and spent the next 70 years intimately engaged in all their important decisions. Japanese conduct during the 30s was atrocious. They tried playing by the moral code in earlier wars, the US and other Western powers repeatedly reneged on deals and forced Japan to return any…

I don't think that's quite fair. It's true that after the arrival of the US, Japan was apparently fed up and changed its approach. But does that make invading and subjugating their neighbours justifiable?

Sort of. If you feel there's a greater power out there that's building up to invade you and your neighbours, forced unity can seem like the lesser of two evils. The US was not super friendly in the first half of the century, Hawaii and the Philippines were both recent military conquest dangerously close to Japan.

Re: Censored Photographs of FDR’s Japanese Concentration Camps

#280

Post by wehadfun »

munificent wrote: post #189
wehadfun wrote: post #156

It seems uncomfortable, but how does it compare to how the Japanese treated the Chinese during the war? Its easy to look back now and think America was terrible but lets not forget that World War Freaking 2 was happening at the time. If your beloved son just got killed at Perl Harbor you probably would have no issue with this at all. Hell you probably feel like it is not bad enough. Its just like all these self right…

> It seems uncomfortable, but how does it compare to how the Japanese treated the Chinese during the war? You are committing the fallacy of relative privation. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFalla... > Its just like all these self righteous people who want to call Bush an idiot for the wars. If your Wife, kids, friends were under a pile of cement in downtown Manhattan on 9/11 you would probabl…

I think you commit fallacy of relative privation when you compare mostly unrelated things.

Relative Privation: Bob: My car got hit by a shopping cart! John: Well that's not bad, it could have been hit by a bus.

Common since: Bob: (Parked his car at a greyhound station and was hit by a bus) John: (Parked his car at a greyhound station and it was hit by a bus) Rick: (Parked his car at grocery store and it was hit by a shopping cart) Sam: (decides to park his car at a grocery store sure it will be hit by a shopping cart but compared to being hit than by a bus its great)

Relative Privation: The Japanese concentration camps were not bad because the Jewish ones had gas chambers:

Common since: The Japanese destroyed China The Japanese destroyed our Perl Harbor The Japanese people may or may not launch a domestic attack To minimzize this threat we will put Japanese in concentration camps sure it goes against our values somewhat but compared to what happened to China simply "not following our values" is fine.

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