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How the Arab World Came Apart

nytimes.com

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Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#271

Post by hx87 »

nickik wrote: post #122
douche wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it will. Someday, there won't be enough bread and circuses and sinecures for all of the extended offshoots of the House of Saud, and somebody will stir up popular, probably religious, discontent, or else a disaffected faction of the government/royalty will stage a coup. Besides that, it is a regime, and really, a nation, that is entirely predicated on petro-dollars. They have been fighting a price war again…

The Saudis will eventually fall, but thats not gone be anytime soon. If the carrot does not work anymore, they have the stick. Just look at Saddam, he was not popular but managed to remain in power for a long time. The Saudis have more money, and a easier to repress, less divided population. The Saudis will be fine for a long time.

The stick has to be paid too--otherwise things don't go very well for those who wield it. Saddam at least had enough of a domestic economy to tax to pay for the security services, as well as a loyal extended family that actually did some of the grunt work, whereas it is doubtful the Saudis have either.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#272

Post by finid »

douche wrote: post #254
finid wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How beautiful! Congress voted to invade another country. That makes it legal. Next you'll get together with your wife and make the decision to invade your next door neighbor. That should be legal, right?

Yes, that is exactly what that means. Legislatures decide what the laws are and what is legal. This is how this works... If you're looking for morality, you're in the wrong department.

So in your view, it was illegal, but immoral, right?

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#273

Post by marcusgarvey »

bogomipz wrote: post #255
marcusgarvey wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iraq, the surprising arrival of the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, Brexit shock, rise of Trump...the commentator classes of New York, DC, London and other "tastemaker" cities need to reckon with their failures and understand why they were so utterly wrong. Instead, in most cases, we see doubling down and demonization of the other side. It's quite extraordinary. The black swans are coming fast and…

What are the "commentator classes"? People who take an active interest in their society? People who try to stay informed? Is that a "class"? What is a "taste maker" city? Please explain what they are and how you pin all the worlds ills on them. New York, DC and London are responsible for the worlds problems? I honestly have no idea what you are are talking about.

I'm not talking about all the world's ills but rather 4 recent events with global, often disastrous consequences. Perhaps it is news to you, but there is a certain kind of person who makes their daily bread on the strength of their supposed expertise in politics, economics and finance. Think tankers, Davos panelists, former political appointees, the experts commonly cited in papers like the FT, NYTimes, WaPo, and the journalists and editorialists who give them ink and air time. They didn't see these events coming, despite the fact that the dynamics leading up to each one had been building for some time. They never seem to admit that they were wrong, and seemingly no one expects them to as they continue to carry on on the lecture and cited expert circuits. Worst of all, they do not seem to recognize that they are just as vulnerable to groupthink as anyone and they never seem to improve their methods of investigation which for me would mean consciously traveling out of the media capitals of New York, DC and London to visit and talk to people in other parts to get a better handle on popular sentiment; being hyper aware of when they might be trading integrity for access and status; and not being too prideful to take a look at alternative points of view from bloggers and commentators who do not trod the same carpeted halls.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#274

Post by hx87 »

Salamat wrote: post #109

This is just another propaganda piece to obscure what is really happening.To make sure that no Arab spring takes place, the US has sold all its allies all the weapons they might need to crush any opposition to their fiefdoms. The New York Times never explains to us who those moderate rebels are. "The alliance says it is fighting “terrorists,” a name it uses for all of Mr. Assad’s foes, from the extremists of the Isla…

So did the US foment the Arab Spring or did it try to stop it? I'm having trouble getting all these conspiracies straight...

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#275

Post by tmptmp »

mustaflex wrote: post #150
John23832 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't pin this on western's. There are definitely those of us who have a grasp on history. This guy/gal has a readily apparent bias.

fortunately they are. This phenomena is just saddening, its the same thing on the other side and dialog become impossible.

>>and dialog become impossible.

The dialog becomes impossible because of many other important reasons, too, including,

a. the opposition by liberals/leftists/Islamists to bring forward any critical review of some extremely troubling vicious aspects of Islam and Islamic scriptures (Quran and Hadiths) under the phony reasons of islamophobia

b. the reluctance of Islamists to accept the notion of freedom of expression even if it means some of the expression offends the Muslims (e.g. discussion regarding pedophilia of Muhammad or someone drawing cartoons of Muhammad)

These views by Bill Maher and Sam Harris may help understand this point in a better way. [1], [2], [3]

In fact, the freedom of opinion is under attack because of Islam, even in the free western world to a large extent.

The freedom lovers, liberals and humanists must understand this threat posed by the vicious ideology of mainstream Islam. The USA and the west now must also invest similar (if not more) efforts and resources to fight this vicious ideology as those that they invested to fight another vicious ideology called communism.

It should however be noted that there are many people who have been Muslims just by birth and they do not necessarily follow the vicious ideology to its core.

So the fight must be against Islam and not against all Muslims, per se.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E1u9lQeAsY

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL8rZTuGfZo

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46nh8_BK7ok

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#276

Post by jomamaxx »

ihsw wrote: post #86
jomamaxx wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preventing women from driving, from being in public without family members, from touching others, from having other see their face etc. etc. is 100% part of the 'intellectual deficit' imposed by Arabic flavours of Islam. Islam is a religion, an ideology and a culture all blended into one. Parts of it are bad. But I don't think it's any of that. I think it's something simpler: there is nothing in the desert. It's real…

You are confusing Islam with the cultures of the Arabian Peninsula -- it may be the birthplace of Islam but Muslims have done much more than eek out a meager existence among sand dunes. Education curriculum, fairness, equality, social justice, civic duty, personal accountability -- all of these things are similarly as present in Islam as they are anywhere else. Also, governance by royal decree is one of the most un-I…

"Education curriculum, fairness, equality, social justice, civic duty, personal accountability -- all of these things are similarly as present in Islam as they are anywhere else."

My friend, no, they are not, and there is not a single nation on Earth where Islam is the prevailing religion where this is the case.

Now - I'm not saying that Islam is compatible with these things, and I agree that my comments are directed towards the 'Arabic and Arabic influenced world' - and that Islam in Indonesia is obviously something altogether different - nevertheless, your comment does not hold.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#277

Post by hx87 »

k__ wrote: post #234
nickik wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, stability would be good for them and everybody. War and fighting is not good for business in general. The instability we see is definitely not a function of design. If you have studied any of it you will quickly realise that this is situation that has many actors that act based on their own interest and absolutely nobody has control over it. Those that attempt to control it usually end up creating a hole host of…

But if they throw people into war, they have control. I mean, yes these people are now uncontrollable, but they also in a state of chaos that prevents them from getting so advanced that they would be a real problem for first world countries on a global scale.

You don't need to be that "advanced" to cause real trouble to other countries around the world, and strong countries generally have more stake in the international and are less likely to rock the boat, which in turn favors other strong, status quo powers. From the US point of view, Putin isn't a friendly guy, but today's Russia is far better for the US than a weak, divided one full of Russian Orthodox extremist groups bent on exporting the traditionalist revolution across the world. Likewise, it's not like even the strongest possible Syria would pose a "real problem" for the likes of US, Russia, the EU or China.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#278

Post by hx87 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #152
fsloth wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I get the exact opposite vibes. Given how crackpot racism has a strong historical background it's very hard not to treat it as a signal of being a produce of crackpot racism. "Race" does not explain anything - although, many people would love it to because that would make it easier to comprehend the world. There is very dark history of this in european pseudoscience. There is far more genetic variation in aver…

I"m not referring to racism per se, but to accusations of racism . It's way too easy to get a "racist" label nowadays.

If that is true, then "racist" is a poor signal of anything, including dealing with controversial topics and conclusions.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#279

Post by hx87 »

tim333 wrote: post #71
cholantesh wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic? Not in any intellectually credible circle. It's just an overlong anti Arab screed.

The reviews on amazon.com seem quite positive, especially from people who have lived in Arab countries eg "I have lived in the Middle East, on and off, for four years, and no book explained the Arab mind as well as Raphael Patai's." It doesn't seem popular with the politically correct crowd.

As a 1st generation Chinese-American who has seen more than his fair share of cooky, isolated, romantic and ill-informed Western expats living in East Asia, I'm not sure I'd trust their opinions on the societies they live in, especially if they did so only "on and off for four years".

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#280

Post by jomamaxx »

jessaustin wrote: post #181
jomamaxx wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Like most of modern history: America's fault most recently, but Europe's fault originally." America and Europe are stabilizing and largely benevolent forces in the world, and they were even this when they were colonialist. The Middle East is a mess because of the nature and history of the types of cultures there. The most prosperous nations in the region are those that play reasonably in the context of international…

Without USA+Europe, I believe the Arab world would look like Libya does now internally. This is irony, right? Without Europe and USA, Libya wouldn't look like it does now, and this isn't ancient history: it happened five years ago! It astounds me how much people forget in such a short time. We have a sort of "Forget Disastrous Military Interventions" Complex.

"It astounds me how much people forget in such a short time."

I have not 'forgotten' anything. I watched every moment of the Libya episode.

I suggest that it is your posture which is 'forgetting'.

A) Libya and Gaddafis totalitarianism, his child rape, corruption, cronyism - and admitted direct involvement in terrorism (Lockerbie bombing) - and then his attempts to mass murder dissenter ARE NOT THE FAULT OF THE WEST.

'The West' was left with very little choice but to at least stop the advancing genocidal army.

By not participating, 'The West' is de-facto 'picking a side'. So there's no way out of it. 'Power' does not work in a vacum, we can't just 'stay out of it' for the most part.

The failure of Libya is 99.9% the fault of Gaddafi, and the various Libyan factions. There's no reason that they can't come to terms and make civilization like everyone else on planet earth.

Just because 'The West' can't magically waive it's wand and create democracy, does not mean that it's 'The Wests' fault that democracy does not exist there.

Moreover - if 'The West' did not provide a stabilizing framework for the last 100 years - Libya would be in the state that it is now - and possibly much worse.

What "astounds me" is how blithely hypocritical are in blaming 'The West' for the mass murdering, totalitarian actions of others.

Have a quick visit to Libya and see for yourself. Myself - I was in Tunisia a few years ago and tried to sneak across the border. Fortunately, I failed :)

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